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Old 04-14-2008, 08:38 PM
 
Location: South Florida
98 posts, read 252,273 times
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the belief in Islam that Jesus was a Prophet, not the son of God, comes from the account of Barnabas. All the other accounts by the other 10 Disciples is discounted as being wrong, fabricated, or lies. Why is so much weight put on this one Disciples' account. While all the rest of the Desciples, who all say the same thing, are not believed.

If it were proven to be that Barnabas was wrong, and the other 10 were telling the truth, would that change the view of Jesus, by Muslims. Meaning he was not a prophet but really the son of God. Would it show that there really was more truth to the belief most Christians have, rather than what is commonly viewed by mainstream Islam?
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:43 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Thank you again, Elwill for sharing your insight of Islam with us. There are a lot of conflicting messages about Islam, and I hope that you bear with me and others who ask you questions.....in other words, I hope you don't feel insulted if it seems that you are being asked to defend Islam, or to deny that Muslims are violent. Those of us in the West can only rely on what we see on TV or in the newspapers, and it is so very rare that we can ask someone questions who is 'in the know'.
it's honor for me to have time correcting the face of islam from prespective of muslims themselfs.
the media , newspaper and TV . can make you trust anything , it's not full authorized source for correct informations
Quote:
My next question is what does the Quran say about honor killings.......is this something justified in the Quran, or is it cultural.....and if it is cultural how do the men who do it get away with it under Sharia law?
quran (9:111)
Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allahs Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Quran. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.
i quote for you this verse from quran to give you the chance to interprete it by your own mind.
allah says that who sacrifies his ownself for the sake of God (in a battle field) so he kill (others) and he been killed , he will go to the paradise.
may be you consider this situation suicide , but we dont

but the real suicide in islam is very big sin , actually we consider anyone suicide apostate from islam and became unbliever.

if you refer to bobmbers suicide , so it depends .
if anyone suicide to kill innocent , civilian , peacefull people , and they are not in battlefield , so it's big sin in islam , simply it's terrorism

but it differ in palastine or iraq , because it's allready became battel field with invadors

some of muslims specially palestinians consider even civilians in israil are real enemy as military one because they also occupy illegal land (palastine's land ) and they support the israil's plolitics by thier lives in israil

for example , if anyone attacked you in your home you can kill him defend yourself without to be guilty, even if this attacker was woman

although it's still more better in islam to avoid womens and children killing , i think most bombers suicide in palastine aiming military
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:17 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdblauvelt View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the belief in Islam that Jesus was a Prophet, not the son of God, comes from the account of Barnabas.
yes , we think that Bernaba is the most Gospeles have the truth , beside it contains prophecy of mohammed(pbuh) by his name .
anyway , what's your point ? bernaba is written before mohammed's born (peace be upon him) beside , i don't think that mohammed (pbuh) discovered it or read hebrew language of it .
Quote:
All the other accounts by the other 10 Disciples is discounted as being wrong, fabricated, or lies. Why is so much weight put on this one Disciples' account. While all the rest of the Desciples, who all say the same thing, are not believed.
you must know that we basically depends completely on quran in our beliefs , not in bernaba nor any gospel , beside that we respect gospeles and believe that it's originally was God's word , and still have some of the truth although the corruptance of it.
so, we not deny all gospeles , but we can interpret it more accurate with our reference (quran) .
we think that most of christians misguided by church doctorine rather than interprete the gospels naturally by themself (unbiased).
divinity of jesus is main faith in christianity although gospel of john is the only gospel divine jesus (pbuh), and jesus (pbuh) never claim his divinity and never ask you to worship him.
Quote:
If it were proven to be that Barnabas was wrong, and the other 10 were telling the truth, would that change the view of Jesus, by Muslims.
let them prove it first , if i convinced , so christians is right .
although , i can proof to you from the 10 gospeles you believe in that jesus (pbuh) is a prophet , i dont need bernaba to show you that
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Toronto; Canada
123 posts, read 281,609 times
Reputation: 20
Thumbs down Believing though in the freedom of expression.

I'm rather old, but I feel young today. BUt: Good one.

I changed my outlook, I must say after going to the washroom. You see this, now, that forgiveness is of the utmost value.
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:33 AM
 
Location: South Florida
98 posts, read 252,273 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
yes , we think that Bernaba is the most Gospeles have the truth , beside it contains prophecy of mohammed(pbuh) by his name .
anyway , what's your point ? bernaba is written before mohammed's born (peace be upon him) beside , i don't think that mohammed (pbuh) discovered it or read hebrew language of it .

you must know that we basically depends completely on quran in our beliefs , not in bernaba nor any gospel , beside that we respect gospeles and believe that it's originally was God's word , and still have some of the truth although the corruptance of it.
so, we not deny all gospeles , but we can interpret it more accurate with our reference (quran) .
we think that most of christians misguided by church doctorine rather than interprete the gospels naturally by themself (unbiased).
divinity of jesus is main faith in christianity although gospel of john is the only gospel divine jesus (pbuh), and jesus (pbuh) never claim his divinity and never ask you to worship him.

let them prove it first , if i convinced , so christians is right .
although , i can proof to you from the 10 gospeles you believe in that jesus (pbuh) is a prophet , i dont need bernaba to show you that
So please explain... how can all the writings, scriptures, historical accounts saying without any doubt that Jesus was the son of God be wrong. Why should the Quran be taken over the word of God, as you even call it. Jesus said many, many, many times that he was the Son of God. Those are not the made up stories of some power hungry church, they are proven in 1900 year old scrolls. All of which are FAR older than the Quran.

If you read the New Testament then you would know that he is the Son of God, it isn't up to a man to convince you... the truth shall set you free. Every word in the new testament states and proves over, and over again that he wasn't a prophet but the son of God. He told all those people REPEATEDLY he wasn't a prophet but the Son of God. That was the thing that he did everyday, prove who he was. All the healings, teachings, miracles, fulfilling that was the proof. Man only believes what he can see. All those people wrote, and told, what they saw. We couldn't all be there to witness... that is why there is the word.

As for the prophesy of Mohammed in the gospel of Barnabas. There are over 300 prophesies of the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament...all were fulfilled. All of them said that he would be the Messiah...the Son of God. So why are they not being believed.

It is these things that lead most people to believe that it is Islam that is wrong, and only believed because of the hate between Islam and Christianity that has been around since the its founding... If you don't like chickens you won't eat their eggs... This isn't really your fault though, as the actions of Christians have caused alot of this throughout the centuries. When you know you are forgiven some people will sin because they know they will be forgiven. This can lead to people not believing the message of the sinner. But remember this above all...Jesus came for the SINNER NOT THE RIGHTEOUS! May God soften your heart, and may you see the light. That is always the real tragedy. When Christs' suffering is the greatest act, and proof of, LOVE and still it is not enough to CONVINCE!

Peace!!!
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:13 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,285,866 times
Reputation: 2880
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
it's honor for me to have time correcting the face of islam from prespective of muslims themselfs.
the media , newspaper and TV . can make you trust anything , it's not full authorized source for correct informations


quran (9:111)
Verily, Allah has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allahs Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Quran. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success.
i quote for you this verse from quran to give you the chance to interprete it by your own mind.
allah says that who sacrifies his ownself for the sake of God (in a battle field) so he kill (others) and he been killed , he will go to the paradise.
may be you consider this situation suicide , but we dont

but the real suicide in islam is very big sin , actually we consider anyone suicide apostate from islam and became unbliever.

if you refer to bobmbers suicide , so it depends .
if anyone suicide to kill innocent , civilian , peacefull people , and they are not in battlefield , so it's big sin in islam , simply it's terrorism

but it differ in palastine or iraq , because it's allready became battel field with invadors

some of muslims specially palestinians consider even civilians in israil are real enemy as military one because they also occupy illegal land (palastine's land ) and they support the israil's plolitics by thier lives in israil

for example , if anyone attacked you in your home you can kill him defend yourself without to be guilty, even if this attacker was woman

although it's still more better in islam to avoid womens and children killing , i think most bombers suicide in palastine aiming military

Thank you for explaining this to me. If I understand correctly, what the Quran is saying is that it is permissable (and actually a good thing) to defend yourself, your people and your religion in times of war or attack. But still, caution should be used and Muslims should try to not hurt innocents. Is that right?
In Iraq there are a lot of suicide bombers who deliberatly go after other Muslims......such as Muslims applying to be in the police force, or at Mosques and schools and even at a pet market.......what are they trying to accomplish? Is this political or religious vendetta agaisnt different types of Muslims? And how is this regarded?

But to my original question, I was wondering if you could explain honor killings to me......I am referring to when male family members will kill a femal family member for bringing shame to the family.....it seems that reasons given are everything from losing her virginity before marriage to not dressing in a modest fashion. Who gets to decide what warrants death? And does the Quran accept this practice or prohibits it?

Thank you again for your patience and your help.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:27 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdblauvelt View Post
So please explain... how can all the writings, scriptures, historical accounts saying without any doubt that Jesus was the son of God be wrong. Why should the Quran be taken over the word of God, as you even call it. Jesus said many, many, many times that he was the Son of God. Those are not the made up stories of some power hungry church, they are proven in 1900 year old scrolls. All of which are FAR older than the Quran.
i know that jesus (pbuh) mentioned in the bible as a son of God , but we differ with christians in interpretation of this expression ,
we understand this expresion as prophet or rightous slave for God , and i can give you many son's of God from old and new testament
so , this expresson dosn't mean that he is a God

Quote:
All those people wrote, and told, what they saw. We couldn't all be there to witness... that is why there is the word.
i don't wanna to depate or fight in this thread , i made this thread just for declaring muslims faith , i have no problem if you really wanna to argue about specific points in the bible , but let us do it in another thread.

for your information who wrote the bible not witnesses , it's not my claims , it's claims of christians schoolar , look with me what they say about Greek manuscripts founded .

"They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own." (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5, Ad Lucinum concerning scribes copying his own works.).

The basic principle which underlies the process of constructing a stemma, or family tree, of manuscripts is that, apart from accident, identity of reading implies identity of origin. Often, however, difficulties hinder the construction of a stemma of manuscripts. A disturbing element enters when mixture has occurred, that is, when a copyist has had two or more manuscripts before him and has followed sometimes one, sometimes the other; or, as sometimes happened, when a scribe copied a manuscript from one exemplar and corrected it against another. To the extent that manuscripts have a "mixed" ancestry, the genealogical relations among them become progressively more complex and obscure to the investigator. Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, pp. 156-159.


Interpreting Ancient Manuscripts

Quote:
As for the prophesy of Mohammed in the gospel of Barnabas. There are over 300 prophesies of the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament...all were fulfilled. All of them said that he would be the Messiah...the Son of God. So why are they not being believed.
so can you tell me some of them and show me how jesus (pbuh) fulfill it.
although i didn't deny that may be he mentioned in old testment , but i wanna to hear from you , but please make for it another thread

Quote:
It is these things that lead most people to believe that it is Islam that is wrong, and only believed because of the hate between Islam and Christianity that has been around since the its founding... If you don't like chickens you won't eat their eggs...
what happened for all this angry !!!
i just answering your questions

al_slam alaikom
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:43 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Thank you for explaining this to me. If I understand correctly, what the Quran is saying is that it is permissable (and actually a good thing) to defend yourself, your people and your religion in times of war or attack. But still, caution should be used and Muslims should try to not hurt innocents. Is that right?
completely right

Quote:
In Iraq there are a lot of suicide bombers who deliberatly go after other Muslims......such as Muslims applying to be in the police force, or at Mosques and schools and even at a pet market.......what are they trying to accomplish? Is this political or religious vendetta agaisnt different types of Muslims? And how is this regarded?
iraq isn't stable country , have alot of sects , and no effective or powerfull laws or government exist , i think that these civilian wars be planned by USA .
you cant make conclusions about islam from behaviours of muslims in iraq .
are you understand my point !?

Quote:
But to my original question, I was wondering if you could explain honor killings to me......I am referring to when male family members will kill a femal family member for bringing shame to the family.....it seems that reasons given are everything from losing her virginity before marriage to not dressing in a modest fashion. Who gets to decide what warrants death? And does the Quran accept this practice or prohibits it?
this actions happens sometimes in some villages in arab countries , but it's not religious at all , quran not accept that , it's considered kill crime .
you can say it's cultural act , not from islam teachings
and this cultural is rare nowadays
Quote:
Thank you again for your patience and your help.
you are wellcome anytime

Last edited by elwill; 04-15-2008 at 10:52 AM..
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:50 PM
 
Location: South Florida
98 posts, read 252,273 times
Reputation: 61
There is no anger in my post. I definately apologize if there is any. As you know there is no emotion in text on the internet. Do not take anything I said as anger.

The question I have about Islam, and this isn't a question to be answered, is how can anyone deny the truth. I'm not a Christian because my family has been Christians for as far back as can be found. It is because I believe. I have read all the religions Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist, Native American and I knew the truth the when I read it.

I have just always had a problem understanding why people can't believe the "Good News". Yes it can be hard when you see a Pope who lives like a King, but claims the authority that he does. When you see Televangelists who sell healing waters on late night T.V. When you see people turn their heads away from the homeless as they walk past them into church. When you see that SOME confuse others into thinking that you have to say a certain prayer, rite, or words to be saved, and they must of course be done in their church and in their ways.

As for debating in another thread I don't want to debate. If you are going to believe thats up to you. My questions were to find out the views of a Muslim, I did. Thank you for your responses...Peace be with you on your walk with him!!
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Toronto; Canada
123 posts, read 281,609 times
Reputation: 20
Default But in Iraq..?

Under Sadam Hussein in Iraq it was regarded to live the future life one could live like He were in heaven on earth. Don't get me wrong, willel, but this is what a lot Mohammedism during the cold war seemed to reflect to be about. I mean this in all sincerity about what Mohammed preached and what Iraq in the materialistic sense tried to accomplish for itself due to Commodoties attitude in deciding the families plans for the future life. Growth in the economy meant developable moneys supply for the people by interest rates, corporate hand outs and basically the people lived the life they choosed to.

However, what is the situation in these days for deciding on one's consumer habits when and what is a lot different even from a more esoteric sense, no?

But as socialism itself taught habits of the communal masses are hard to lose.
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