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Old 09-19-2008, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
1,177 posts, read 3,742,765 times
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For a different take on Islam from most of what I have been reading in this thread read Brigitte Gabriel's recently published book They Must Be Stopped.
Any discussion of Islam must differentiate between moderate Islam and radical Islam(pure Islam). Additionally, Islam is not just a religion. Islam is a religious, political, social, economic, and military ideology. The Koran itself calls for the submission and killing of disbelievers(Koran 9:5; Koran 8:39). I am curious how moderate Islam reconciles this with radical Islam. It's nice to talk about peace but the Koran appears to put more emphasis on killing, with peace only coming if disbelievers submit to Islam's beliefs.
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Old 09-19-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
It is a fine line to adhere to religious beliefs yet still function in a new society that does not share those beliefs with you. Or, at least to the extent the person would like.
I certainly would not protest the right of an individual to practice his religion to the fullest extent...however, I do protest when that persons religious beliefs either break the law of the land (such as the FLDS cult) or impinge on anothers constitutional rights. By this I mean, if giving a ride to a person who has alcohol on his person is against a mans religion...then perhaps he is in the wrong profession. If handling pork products is against a womans beliefs....then perhaps she should only seek employment at stores that do not carry pork. Do you see? An individual has the obligation to find employment that meshes well with his beliefs (for example, I would never work at an abortion clinic). An individual doesnot have the right to force his employer or the greater community to bend to his/her religous beliefs. Would you agree?
you are right in your insight , i agree with you
islam didn't prohibit us to communicate or help or serve drinker or eaters of pork , islam just prohibit us to use it personally or deal with these products by bying or selling or spreading it , but we arn't prohibited to deal with those persons whom using it , it's all about the product not the person , so i agree with you that muslim should choose suitable job
if this woman work for someone so , she have no right to not help the customer , but if she own the shop , so i think she have the rights to do whatever she want

about the taxi , i think that have the right to not make drinkers ride with him , it dosn't need for someone to be relegious, it's just happened for safty , i think
so i see it as a free will for the driver to choose his riders
yet not that driver nor the womwn in you examples break any laws ,isn't it right ?
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:04 AM
 
148 posts, read 264,315 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbone View Post
For a different take on Islam from most of what I have been reading in this thread read Brigitte Gabriel's recently published book They Must Be Stopped.
Any discussion of Islam must differentiate between moderate Islam and radical Islam(pure Islam). Additionally, Islam is not just a religion. Islam is a religious, political, social, economic, and military ideology. The Koran itself calls for the submission and killing of disbelievers(Koran 9:5; Koran 8:39). I am curious how moderate Islam reconciles this with radical Islam. It's nice to talk about peace but the Koran appears to put more emphasis on killing, with peace only coming if disbelievers submit to Islam's beliefs.
May be you don't know when we fight,

we don't fight people if they choose other religion than Islam.

God The Just said:
256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tght [false deities and false leaders, etc.] and believes in Allh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

257. Allh is the Wal (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into light. But as for those who disbelieve, their Auliy (supporters and helpers) are Tght [false deities and false leaders, etc.], they bring them out from light into darkness. Those are the dwellers of the Fire, and they will abide therein forever.

we fight in 2 cases:
1. When people attack us or our muslim brothers or sisters.
2. When criminals block people from telling the truth or accepting it and they don't want the massege of The Creator to reach people.

We don't kill in both cases: women, children, old men and all the people who don't fight us.

This is briefly The Jihad in Islam and this is the order of God Glorified and Exalted be He.
we don't have the right to do what we want in His Earth and violate His laws.
we have to adjust ourselves to His laws as we do when we go to any country.


If some one kill innocent people, he will be judged in the last day, even if he is muslim.
innocent people will take their right in the last day, even if they are disbeliever, because God is The Just.
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:23 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,045,198 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbone View Post
For a different take on Islam from most of what I have been reading in this thread read Brigitte Gabriel's recently published book They Must Be Stopped.
Any discussion of Islam must differentiate between moderate Islam and radical Islam(pure Islam). Additionally, Islam is not just a religion. Islam is a religious, political, social, economic, and military ideology. The Koran itself calls for the submission and killing of disbelievers(Koran 9:5; Koran 8:39). I am curious how moderate Islam reconciles this with radical Islam. It's nice to talk about peace but the Koran appears to put more emphasis on killing, with peace only coming if disbelievers submit to Islam's beliefs.
quran didn't talk about peace !? let us see the complete sight of violence in quran

60-8
Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
60-9
Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers.

in another verses
4-90
Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.
4-91
You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.

in another verses
2-190
Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
2-191
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2-192
But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
2-193
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

this statement "and relegion is for allah/God" not limited with God of muslims its mean the God in it's general meaning , God of muslims and christians and hindus or whatever , this statement refers to freedom of relegion , it refers to no persecution , the relegion will be for God , not for muslims not for christains not for jews , it will be for God . he is the only one who have the right to accept this relegion and refuse it in hearafter

other violence in quran
9-12
And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
9-13
Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Know Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers
9-14
Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.


so what do you think ? the violence existed in quran are supported in specifi situations , specific reasons and with conditions

8-60
Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
8-61
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

i need to know if you have the same sight about the violence in quran after i show you the complete sight of it form quran ?
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:17 PM
 
Location: france
15 posts, read 16,688 times
Reputation: 11
I dont want EVER to share this obsession with 'books', called 'HOLY' or otherwise. What a horrible crippling idea it is - to be so chained to interpretations and 'prophets'.
All interpretations of ALL books - are second hand interpretations, from the original authors, including the koran etc.
Anyone who likes to rely on someone elses ideas and translations and interpretations... of what someone wrote...hundreds of years ago, in my view is dicing with his sanity - and his morality.
Jesus is right, you and I may talk 'directly' to 'god'.
When I am afraid, at every worst moment in my life - I have done so - and god never fails to comfort me and give me strength to face whatever life brings.
Poor old jesus was murdered by a bunch of savages for reminding everyone of that gentle and very obvious truth.
Keep your so-called prophets, whiskery old guys, people dressed in funny outfits in all kinds of fancy buildings - who want to operate as my conscience, and yours!
I have my OWN path to god -
God is love.
Love understands and forgives all my worst and best efforts.
There is not ONE book or other mind or other person I need -
My conscience and the knowledge of love - as christ showed love to be...is enough.
Dear me - imagine memorising all that stuff in books - and thinking it will do ANYTHING but clog your brain up with nonsense.
NO THANK YOU!


Quote:
Originally Posted by P:E:A:C:E View Post
You are most welcome anytime
People can turn to the teachings of their own religions (Christianity and Judaism included), because Christianity, Judaism and Islam has relation between each other.
but when we need to understand the truth we should read the original book which was sent to each prophet for each religion and which has never been changed by human hands have made to them.

We must distinguish between two matters: the original Torah, Gospel, and Psalms and the present day Bible. The originals were God’s revelation, but the present day Bible does not have the exact original scripture

No divine scripture exists today in the original language it was revealed in, except the Quran. The Bible was not revealed in English. Different books of today’s Bible are at best tertiary translations and different versions exist. These multiple translations were done by people whose knowledge, skill, or honesty is not known. As a result, some bibles are larger than others and have contradictions and internal inconsistencies! No originals exist. The Quran, on the other hand, is the only scripture in existence today in its original language and words. Not one letter of the Quran has been changed since its revelation. It is internally consistent with no contradictions. It is today as it was revealed 1400 years ago, transmitted by a rock-solid tradition of memorization and writing. Unlike other sacred texts, the entire Quran has been memorized by almost every Islamic scholar and hundreds of thousands of ordinary Muslims, generation after generation!
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Old 06-20-2010, 12:13 AM
 
1 posts, read 735 times
Reputation: 10
i found a nice site which can really help anyone who wants to talk and understand more without all the hassle [url=http://www.MuslimsIn.com]Welcome to MuslimsIn[/url]
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:16 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,744,535 times
Reputation: 591
It's hard to understand some Muslims.

YouTube - Subtitled Arab

Oh come on, that had to make you smile....

On a serious note.. why should I take Muhammad word that god spoke to him when no one else was around...
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 22,057,682 times
Reputation: 5080
Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
we fight in 2 cases:
1. When people attack us or our muslim brothers or sisters.
2. When criminals block people from telling the truth or accepting it and they don't want the massege of The Creator to reach people.
What I get from this is:

(1) You defend any Muslims, no matter how radical and bloodthrirsty their actions are, and

(2) Anyone who does not subscribe to your version of "truth" is a "criminal".

Is that about it? Color me a criminal.
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