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Old 05-12-2008, 01:44 AM
 
Location: illinois
62 posts, read 89,813 times
Reputation: 17

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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Did I miss something or does Hamas along with Iran not want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. Israel is defending their territories like any other country would. Again, nothing to do with religion. More than a third of the Israeli's are atheists or agnostic anyway so it's not because they are Jewish. They are nationalists.

Having said all that, I don't believe any country should have a state sponsored religion. The laws should reflect the peoples morality, but government should stay out the business of religion. That includes Israel, Saudi Arabia, or any other country like it. At best, the minorities in those countries are typically persecuted and at worst, killed.
I'm afraid you missed a lot of things. Your reasoning is quite wrong, even if you think this conflict started ticking when hamas started launching fire crackers at Israel. What you seem to forget is that Palestine is under occupation, and that is why hamas and Palestinians in general will not stand down. Somehow, you are willing to ignore that and think that the problem is hamas, as if the occupation started with hamas firing its rockets.

Since this is a religion thread, i will stop here, but please do understand that there is more to this than you seem to think. The whole existance of Israel as a state where it is today, is a scar on humanity. And before you jump to conclusions, no i'm not anti semite, nore am i against jews and their dreams of having a state, if they wish so, but i'm sure against that state to be created on the blood of other people, Palestinians included.
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Old 05-12-2008, 08:12 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,334,059 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisjusticeman View Post
I'm afraid you missed a lot of things. Your reasoning is quite wrong, even if you think this conflict started ticking when hamas started launching fire crackers at Israel. What you seem to forget is that Palestine is under occupation, and that is why hamas and Palestinians in general will not stand down. Somehow, you are willing to ignore that and think that the problem is hamas, as if the occupation started with hamas firing its rockets.

Since this is a religion thread, i will stop here, but please do understand that there is more to this than you seem to think. The whole existance of Israel as a state where it is today, is a scar on humanity. And before you jump to conclusions, no i'm not anti semite, nore am i against jews and their dreams of having a state, if they wish so, but i'm sure against that state to be created on the blood of other people, Palestinians included.
Okay, look, I understand that this didn't begin with Hamas. I understand the effects of British colonization many years ago. But just like today, Palestine was just a loose conglomeration of Arabs who's only commonality was that they were united in wanting the destruction of Israel. So was was there actually a Palestine before there was an Israel. Maybe, maybe not.

The bottom line is that Isreal has the resources to hold their own, and Hamas can want Israel to go away, but if they ever want to stop fighting and let their people heal, they are going to have to let go of the idea of the destruction of Israel.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:05 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,805,673 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by juj
Quote:
Okay, look, I understand that this didn't begin with Hamas. I understand the effects of British colonization many years ago. But just like today, Palestine was just a loose conglomeration of Arabs who's only commonality was that they were united in wanting the destruction of Israel. So was was there actually a Palestine before there was an Israel. Maybe, maybe not.
If I'm not mistaken, the Jews were driven out of Israel by the Roman Empire in 70 AD, and Israel ceased to exist until it was created again by the allies after World War II.
The Islam did not enter the picture until 600 AD where they conquered most of the Middle East end kept Palestine until the 20th century.

You could compare this to a fictitious situation were the UN gave the various Native American tribes their land back after WWIII.
I bet the Americans would fight this decision and want their old US back, just like the Palestinians do not want to be driven out of Palestine.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,205,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
You could compare this to a fictitious situation were the UN gave the various Native American tribes their land back after WWIII.

Did I miss something? When was World War 3?????
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:19 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,334,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by jujIf I'm not mistaken, the Jews were driven out of Israel by the Roman Empire in 70 AD, and Israel ceased to exist until it was created again by the allies after World War II.
The Islam did not enter the picture until 600 AD where they conquered most of the Middle East end kept Palestine until the 20th century.

You could compare this to a fictitious situation were the UN gave the various Native American tribes their land back after WWIII.
I bet the Americans would fight this decision and want their old US back, just like the Palestinians do not want to be driven out of Palestine.
Okay, how about the spoils of war go to the victor. The victorious decide what they're going to do with the land. If the Palestinians want to fight until hell freezes over, then they can do that. But if they want peace for their children, then use the land given to them and make the best of it.

Then maybe 50 years, hence, go after Israel again. How's that for strategy? But maybe by then, the Palestinians will have become accustomed to peace and thus would prefer it over another lengthy war.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:49 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,805,673 times
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Originally Posted by juj
Quote:
Okay, how about the spoils of war go to the victor. The victorious decide what they're going to do with the land.
So you are saying that Americans would just give up without a fight? That they would just forget the American fighting spirit and forget all about being a rebel?
Especially when they are mistreated like the Palestinians are now?
That even when they have almost nothing, it still is taken away from them?
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:09 AM
 
Location: illinois
62 posts, read 89,813 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by jujIf I'm not mistaken, the Jews were driven out of Israel by the Roman Empire in 70 AD, and Israel ceased to exist until it was created again by the allies after World War II.
The Islam did not enter the picture until 600 AD where they conquered most of the Middle East end kept Palestine until the 20th century.

You could compare this to a fictitious situation were the UN gave the various Native American tribes their land back after WWIII.
I bet the Americans would fight this decision and want their old US back, just like the Palestinians do not want to be driven out of Palestine.
I disagree a little with the example you provided. There was never a nation called Israel, there was the kingdom of Israel. It existed around 3000 years ago. But even then, it is not like the land Palestine was Jewish, for along with Jews, lived Canaanites, Phoenicians (both which Arabs are descendants of) among other races.

Jews have not lived in Palestine for over 2500 years, but Palestinian Arabs did. So I guess the point I disagree with, is when you said the UN give the Jews their land back, well it was also the Palestinian Arab lands, it is not like they were new settlers or new comers. Also most Jews in Israel are from European ancestors, who never lived or were in Palestine.

Sorry, this was long, but I think we both agree on the premise, for I find most of the time I find my views agreeable with yours.
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:39 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,805,673 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by illinoisjusticeman
Quote:
So I guess the point I disagree with, is when you said the UN give the Jews their land back, well it was also the Palestinian Arab lands, it is not like they were new settlers or new comers. Also most Jews in Israel are from European ancestors, who never lived or were in Palestine.
Guess where the white Americans come from?
The Afro Americans obviously come from Africa and the Chinese from China etc.
My point was that you just cannot divide land amongst people without taking into the account of cultural borders and cultural history.
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:54 AM
 
Location: illinois
62 posts, read 89,813 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Okay, look, I understand that this didn't begin with Hamas. I understand the effects of British colonization many years ago. But just like today, Palestine was just a loose conglomeration of Arabs who's only commonality was that they were united in wanting the destruction of Israel. So was was there actually a Palestine before there was an Israel. Maybe, maybe not.

The bottom line is that Isreal has the resources to hold their own, and Hamas can want Israel to go away, but if they ever want to stop fighting and let their people heal, they are going to have to let go of the idea of the destruction of Israel.
1- I think you are mistaken, the Arabs (Palestinians) who lived in Palestine, had a lot of things in common, including culture, religion, language, history and common goals. They also fought several occupiers to their lands, including Ottomans and British. Israel did not exist till 1948, so I don't know what you mean that the only commonality they had is fighting Israel.

Back to your question, was there a Palestine before? The answer is simply yes, there were the Palestinian people with their heritage and history that was distinct from the rest of its neighbors. If you mean there was no independent state of Palestine, that is true, they were ruled by the Ottomans and others before them. The same applies to all Middle Eastern nations. They only became independent in the middle of the 20th century. Also let us not forget that the issue of Palestine is not simply the borders of the nation, and people fighting over the land(like most border conflicts in the world). This is a case of displacing a whole people and bringing in European foreigners and claiming the land as theirs, because they happen to adhere to the Jewish religion.

2- Do you honestly think the problem is hamas wanting to destroy Israel? It is like saying there can never be peace because the native Indians want to destroy the US. The fact of the matter is that they cannot even if they wanted to. And even to suggest that let alone take it seriously is a joke. Hamas has on several occasions, and more so recently, confirmed that it wants to maintain peace with Israel on the 1967 borders. Israel only uses hamas and almost everything else as an excuse to avoid dealing with the real issues they have to. Which mainly is end their occupation of the Palestinian lands occupied in 1967, return of Arab Jerusalem and return of refugees. Keep in mind hamas was around only for 20 years, and was jump started by Israel in a way to undermine the PLO.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:16 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,334,059 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by jujSo you are saying that Americans would just give up without a fight? That they would just forget the American fighting spirit and forget all about being a rebel?
Especially when they are mistreated like the Palestinians are now?
That even when they have almost nothing, it still is taken away from them?
Moderator cut: personal attack Did I mention the Americans?

I said the Palestinians CAN fight until hell freezes over. It's completely up to THEM, but if they want peace for their children, they need to change. They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results. Well, that's what the Palestinians are doing. Unless the entire Muslim world joins up together and unites in very large army, the Palestinians, if they keep fighting, will find themselves in a 100 years exactly where they are today.

I tell you what Moderator cut: personal attack, why don't you send Palestine letters that you're behind them 100% and to keep up the good fight. Also, attach at least 1000 Euros.

Last edited by Alpha8207; 05-13-2008 at 12:06 PM..
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