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Old 05-09-2008, 10:40 AM
 
Location: morocco
69 posts, read 137,894 times
Reputation: 27

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My answer is the same to the question of Mr Layasafir that was:
This question is inherently false and self contradictory. If we were to say for the sake of argument -that some one created Allah then you would ask who created the creator of the creator? Then who created the creator of the creator of the creator? And so on,...................
This is irrational and impossible.
Quran tells us:
" Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah The Eternal, the Absolute (The self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks);
He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or like Him." [112:1-4]
[Means, the Creator can never be equated with the created!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]No one created Him. He is the First and the Last. He created everything other than Himself.
This is what makes sense and is logical.

And the question that you are asking isn't our subject , our subject was the proof for the existence of the creator , and not how did he become to existense , that's another subject?
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Sheffield, England
2,639 posts, read 6,030,856 times
Reputation: 3257
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
This question is inherently false and self contradictory. If we were to say for the sake of argument -that some one created Allah then you would ask who created the creator of the creator? Then who created the creator of the creator of the creator? And so on,...................
This is irrational and impossible.
Quran tells us:
" Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah The Eternal, the Absolute (The self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks);
He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or like Him." [112:1-4]
[Means, the Creator can never be equated with the created!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]No one created Him. He is the First and the Last. He created everything other than Himself.
This is what makes sense and is logical.
Prophet Muhammed (s.a.w.) said:
" People will keep on asking questions until some one will say ,
' Allah created the universe but who created Allah?' Whoever encounters that let him say:
"AmantuBillah (I believe in Allah.)'"
But if, as your original post stated, all the animals and creatures on this earth must have had a beginning and so must have been created, so must Allah. And if what you're saying is that Allah has just always existed then why is it irrational to say that animals haven't always existed too?

If he has always existed and yet everything else hasn't then what was he doing for the eternity before everything came into being? Was he just sitting in a huge black void with his reading glasses on flicking through "Creation For Dummies" until he felt confident enough to give it a shot himself? No, this isn't possible because if he's existed forever then it would be that he would have been reading forever too. When you stop and think carefully about the concept of a god that has always existed and always will, it is your views that are "irrational and impossible".
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:43 PM
 
205 posts, read 347,218 times
Reputation: 22
the only name that was ever given the door way to heaven was ,....jesus,...the father almighty god himself
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,844,408 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
My answer is the same to the question of Mr Layasafir that was:
This question is inherently false and self contradictory. If we were to say for the sake of argument -that some one created Allah then you would ask who created the creator of the creator? Then who created the creator of the creator of the creator? And so on,...................
This is irrational and impossible.
Quran tells us:
" Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah The Eternal, the Absolute (The self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks);
He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or like Him." [112:1-4]
[Means, the Creator can never be equated with the created!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]No one created Him. He is the First and the Last. He created everything other than Himself.
This is what makes sense and is logical.

And the question that you are asking isn't our subject , our subject was the proof for the existence of the creator , and not how did he become to existense , that's another subject?
Well then, this leads to another problem with your argument. You have given no evidence to support your claim that "creatures" require a creator. You have stated, or at least quoted someone else stating, that "creatures" cannot arise by coincidence and therefore must have a creator. But you have not demonstrated that this is a true statement and have ignored other possibilities.

Let
A = creatures arise by coincidence
B = Allah created all creatures
C = some other explanation

Simply put, you are saying that either A or B is true, and because A makes no sense to you, then B must be true. But it is also possible that both A and B are false, the fact that A is in your opinion false(it may or may not be false as you have not given any evidence either way), does not make B automatically true. You also ignore C which can also be or true or false based on its own merit.
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Old 05-10-2008, 03:52 AM
 
Location: morocco
69 posts, read 137,894 times
Reputation: 27
The possibilities that i supposed were three:
A-creatures arise by coincidence.
B-creatures bring themselves into existence.
C- there's a Creator for the universe.

And I argued as following:
A Is false because (first) every occurrence (novelty, etc.) must need an originator. Also because (second) its existence in such highly magnificent order and homogenous coordination, and due to the coherent relationship between the means and the causes , and the creatures with one another , it is absolutely impossible that is very being is coincidental .(third) ( In fact) , what is ( believed) to exist as a result of coincidence , does not follow an ordered pattern at the beginning of its existence . so how could it remain to be ordered during its course of survival and development?

B is false because a thing does not create it self –since prior to its existence it was nothing – so how could it be a creator?

So if its impossible that the creatures have neither brought themselves into existence nor they did they came to exist by coincidence , then it becomes evident that they must have a creator , and He is Allaah , the Rabb of the world.

Finally , if you have a fouth possibility pls tell me what is and we will see.
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Old 05-10-2008, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,874 posts, read 31,750,270 times
Reputation: 12622
Here is an alternate theory on the creation of life.
Do Meteors Create Life? Explosion Of New Life Coincided With Hundreds Of Meteorite Impacts
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Old 05-10-2008, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,844,408 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
The possibilities that i supposed were three:
A-creatures arise by coincidence.
B-creatures bring themselves into existence.
C- there's a Creator for the universe.

And I argued as following:
A Is false because (first) every occurrence (novelty, etc.) must need an originator.
We have come full circle again. If every occurrence must need an originator, then the originator must also need one. So if A is true, then there must be an infinite regression of originators. If A is false then there must be some point at which we say that some occurrence does not need an originator. Your argument that Allah is the originator indicates that you believe A to be false. If A is false with respect to Allah, then why must we assume that A is true for all other occurrences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
Also because (second) its existence in such highly magnificent order and homogenous coordination, and due to the coherent relationship between the means and the causes , and the creatures with one another , it is absolutely impossible that is very being is coincidental
Again, your argument seems to indicate that you believe this to be false with respect to Allah. You must believe that a creator exists coincidentally that has both the ability and motivation to create all of the other order observed in the universe. If this is false with respect to Allah, then why must we assume that it is true with respect to all other occurrences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
.(third) ( In fact) , what is ( believed) to exist as a result of coincidence , does not follow an ordered pattern at the beginning of its existence . so how could it remain to be ordered during its course of survival and development?[/color]
Earlier in the thread you have argued that Allah exists in just such a way, that Allah exists just because and remains ordered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
B is false because a thing does not create it self –since prior to its existence it was nothing – so how could it be a creator?
I would ask the same question of Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
So if its impossible that the creatures have neither brought themselves into existence nor they did they came to exist by coincidence , then it becomes evident that they must have a creator , and He is Allaah , the Rabb of the world.
This is not a logical conclusion. Every argument you have made above is against the existence of Allah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
Finally , if you have a fouth possibility pls tell me what is and we will see.
There is another possibility, but it is not really the topic of this thread. You have claimed to have proven that Allah is the creator of our universe. I maintain that you have not proven that.
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Old 05-10-2008, 11:30 AM
 
366 posts, read 495,945 times
Reputation: 82
Hi souhilo,

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
All of the creatures, the first and subsequent ones, must have a Creator Who brought them to existence, because they neither can bring themselves into existence, nor they could have come to exist by coincidence! The creatures could have not brought themselves to existence because a thing does not create it self –since prior to its existence it was nothing – so how could it be a creator? And it cannot accidentally bring into being, because every occurrence (novelty, etc.) must need an originator. Also because its existence in such highly magnificent order and homogenous coordination, and due to the coherent relationship between the means and the causes , and the creators with one another , it is absolutely impossible that is very being is coincidental . ( In fact) , what is ( believed) to exist as a result of coincidence , does not follow an ordered pattern at the beginning of its existence . so how could it remain to be ordered during its course of survival and development?
I completely agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
So if its impossible that the creatures have neither brought themselves into existence nor they did they came to exist by coincidence , then it becomes evident that they must have a creator ,
I completely agree with this, too. Accept a bit more argument is necessary to establish a "creator" I think (though I agree it is strongly implied).

Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
and He is Allaah , the Rabb of the world.
This goes beyond what the argument can establish. We get something like a theistic picture, but more argument is necessary for this conclusion.

Ok, I have to run. But interesting post. Thanks!
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