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Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
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Originally Posted by Deb in VA
Isn't it true that those who believe in the big bang believe that the elements that caused it to occur have always been present in the universe? In other words, nothing caused them to come into existance, they've just always been here right? If you can believe that, then why is it so hard for you to understand the Christian belief that God has always existed...that He wasn't created but has just always been? Seems like the same basic concept to me.
As Haaziq said, creationist base there argument for ID the principle that a complex system requires an intelligent designer, but then exempt the designer from this principle. The Big Bang is just a description of the early universe, it really doesn't say if the matter, energy, and even the fundamental laws of physics already existed or if they formed somehow. What we know for sure is that they exist now, the same cannot be said of an intelligent designer.
Isn't it true that those who believe in the big bang believe that the elements that caused it to occur have always been present in the universe? In other words, nothing caused them to come into existance, they've just always been here right? If you can believe that, then why is it so hard for you to understand the Christian belief that God has always existed...that He wasn't created but has just always been? Seems like the same basic concept to me.
Well there's a lot of misconception about what caused the Big Bang and I don't think a lot of people fully understand it in the sense of how it all worked (not that I am the world's foremost expert on it).
I can't count how many times people have asked me how all of a sudden something just blew up and there was the Earth and the Universe and all of its' galaxies with all of its' stars. This is not true in even the slightest.
Rather, the Big Bang was more likely the expansion of one extremely condensed element (hydrogen) in something no larger than your fist. With the resulting expansion (the oft mentioned 'explosion') the first elements such as helium, lithium and a small amount of beryllium were created. Created in the sense of nuclear fusion. One hydrogen atom fuses with another and creates helium. The helium atom fuses with another hydrogen atom and creates lithium and so on and so forth.
However, the result of all of this matter being extraordinarily released into this "bubble" left a resulting uniform heat signature throughout the galaxy from that moment until right now. Such is why we see on the gamma microwave spectrum an irridescent glow that measures a temperature (off the top of my head and without looking this up so it may be subject to error) of about 2.3 degrees Kelvin (that's what it is now). Anyway, that's besides the point.
To further go on about hydrogen and helium, as you are probably well aware, these two elements are what make up stars. They make up stars like our sun but our sun is a baby compared to some of the stars in the universe. There are things called supernovas and hypernovas whose size would encompass much of our own small little orbital plain in space. That is, it would be awfully close to the size of something stretching from Earth to Jupiter and perhaps even bigger. What's important to recognize about what goes on inside these stars is the process of nucleosynthesis. It's essentially the same thing as what happened during the Big Bang. Hydrogen and Helium elements combine to make Lithium and then Berillium and so on and so forth. At some point, roughly around the time the star is on its' iron manufacturing stretch, a sort of critical reaction occurs. Suddenly, and extraordinarily rapidly, all of the other elements are rapidly produced in the last few seconds of this stars' life. It then blows up and scatters all of these newly found elements throughout space. This is also the reason why the lower elements are found more in number than higher elements like plutonium for example. Now, it's kind of hard to picture all of this happening and putting things into perspective as to how much mass these things consist of. To put it inversely, when one of these supernovas or hypernovas collapses, they form some of the largest blackholes in the universe.
Anyway, my point in all of this is to say that I find it much more likely that the lone element of hydrogen was collectively massed together into some finite point for a certain amount of time. Now, don't be confused by that, because time in this universe had not begun when that dense mass was just sitting there. Time began AFTER the Big Bang occurred and did so as a result of the consistent entropical heightening of the universe. In other words, time progresses in this universe for the same reasons that coke doesn't unspill, eggs don't uncrack, and football teams don't unlose ball games. From the very moment the Big Bang occurred (which was a heightened point of extreme order) things have been slowly drifting into disarray.
So, yes, I find it much more likely through explainable methods that there was a mass of something like hydrogen that had been sitting there "forever" rather than an infinite regressions of something existing in some sort of state. Thus, this is what I mean by in order for something to exist it must be bound to time and physical constraints.
So, where did that mass of hydrogen come from? Well, quantum physics is making wonderful leaps and bounds (and hopefully we'll have an answer when they fire up the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland) in both string theories and other things like Higgs particles, gravitons, and other ideas on the matter (no pun intended).
I would like to point out though that it's entirely possible that these could be found to be "dead" theories that have no merit to them. They're quite mathematically sound but they haven't been "put to the test" just yet. Anyway, that's a very very very rough course in how it all "went down". And, yes, I find it to be a lot better explained than "It just exists outside the boundaries of space and time and therefore..."
Edit: I made a grievous mistake and it's a bit misleading. I was just thinking about it. Hydrogen would not have been bundled up into a little ball. Rather, hydrogen would have actually come after the "plasma soup" that was the result of the Big Bang. As this "soup" cooled, and particles such as electrons, photons, etc.. came into play, it's widely thought that the first hydrogen atoms were a result of this. Sorry for the mistake. I was re-reading it and it just kind of glared out at me at the time. My bad.
Well there's a lot of misconception about what caused the Big Bang and I don't think a lot of people fully understand it in the sense of how it all worked (not that I am the world's foremost expert on it).
I can't count how many times people have asked me how all of a sudden something just blew up and there was the Earth and the Universe and all of its' galaxies with all of its' stars. This is not true in even the slightest.
Rather, the Big Bang was more likely the expansion of one extremely condensed element (hydrogen) in something no larger than your fist. With the resulting expansion (the oft mentioned 'explosion') the first elements such as helium, lithium and a small amount of beryllium were created. Created in the sense of nuclear fusion. One hydrogen atom fuses with another and creates helium. The helium atom fuses with another hydrogen atom and creates lithium and so on and so forth.
However, the result of all of this matter being extraordinarily released into this "bubble" left a resulting uniform heat signature throughout the galaxy from that moment until right now. Such is why we see on the gamma microwave spectrum an irridescent glow that measures a temperature (off the top of my head and without looking this up so it may be subject to error) of about 2.3 degrees Kelvin (that's what it is now). Anyway, that's besides the point.
To further go on about hydrogen and helium, as you are probably well aware, these two elements are what make up stars. They make up stars like our sun but our sun is a baby compared to some of the stars in the universe. There are things called supernovas and hypernovas whose size would encompass much of our own small little orbital plain in space. That is, it would be awfully close to the size of something stretching from Earth to Jupiter and perhaps even bigger. What's important to recognize about what goes on inside these stars is the process of nucleosynthesis. It's essentially the same thing as what happened during the Big Bang. Hydrogen and Helium elements combine to make Lithium and then Berillium and so on and so forth. At some point, roughly around the time the star is on its' iron manufacturing stretch, a sort of critical reaction occurs. Suddenly, and extraordinarily rapidly, all of the other elements are rapidly produced in the last few seconds of this stars' life. It then blows up and scatters all of these newly found elements throughout space. This is also the reason why the lower elements are found more in number than higher elements like plutonium for example. Now, it's kind of hard to picture all of this happening and putting things into perspective as to how much mass these things consist of. To put it inversely, when one of these supernovas or hypernovas collapses, they form some of the largest blackholes in the universe.
Anyway, my point in all of this is to say that I find it much more likely that the lone element of hydrogen was collectively massed together into some finite point for a certain amount of time. Now, don't be confused by that, because time in this universe had not begun when that dense mass was just sitting there. Time began AFTER the Big Bang occurred and did so as a result of the consistent entropical heightening of the universe. In other words, time progresses in this universe for the same reasons that coke doesn't unspill, eggs don't uncrack, and football teams don't unlose ball games. From the very moment the Big Bang occurred (which was a heightened point of extreme order) things have been slowly drifting into disarray.
So, yes, I find it much more likely through explainable methods that there was a mass of something like hydrogen that had been sitting there "forever" rather than an infinite regressions of something existing in some sort of state. Thus, this is what I mean by in order for something to exist it must be bound to time and physical constraints.
So, where did that mass of hydrogen come from? Well, quantum physics is making wonderful leaps and bounds (and hopefully we'll have an answer when they fire up the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland) in both string theories and other things like Higgs particles, gravitons, and other ideas on the matter (no pun intended).
I would like to point out though that it's entirely possible that these could be found to be "dead" theories that have no merit to them. They're quite mathematically sound but they haven't been "put to the test" just yet. Anyway, that's a very very very rough course in how it all "went down". And, yes, I find it to be a lot better explained than "It just exists outside the boundaries of space and time and therefore..."
Wow! Very educational! Thanks for taking the time.
who ceated God ?!!
this question or the answers of this question dosn't make any sense with any relegion in the world , why ?
because you will not find the answer you want in any relegion .
so it can't be relegion peoblem , its just phelosophy !
even if atheists if we consider it relegion , they allready believe that they be created by chance , and all the animals and all creations are created by chance (without creator) . so this question become useless also with atheist .
so i obey what mohammed (pbuh) said by saying
amanto bellah (i believe in god )
i believe that i created by God whatever history of our almighty God is , it will not get benfits for me
Isn't it true that those who believe in the big bang believe that the elements that caused it to occur have always been present in the universe? In other words, nothing caused them to come into existance, they've just always been here right? If you can believe that, then why is it so hard for you to understand the Christian belief that God has always existed...that He wasn't created but has just always been? Seems like the same basic concept to me.
Some scientists believe that there have always been natural elements present, and over time they formed a mass etc etc... Even if this is not the case, it does not automatically mean that there must have been a God. Religion and science are not necessarily correct if the other is wrong.
The first cause argument from the OP is in itself contradictory. If everything needs a cause, then so would God, and on and on we go. The difference with your argument above and the first cause argument for God is that scientists don't need a cause for the natural elements to be present in the first place. You could argue that God also didn't need a cause, but then what eveidence is there for God if you take out the first cause argument??
The Origin of Life - an Islamic Perspective Science must increase our faith. It is wrong for anyone to close their eyes to what is right in front of them. For a Muslim the evidence of dinosaurs and fossils is not a threat to our beliefs. Rather, it is a confirmation of the power of Allah.
Adapted from the Book: What Islam is All About By Yahiya Emerick
the rest of the article here
The Origin of Life - an Islamic Perspective (http://www.islamfortoday.com/emerick16.htm - broken link)
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,434,007 times
Reputation: 1463
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill
who ceated God ?!!
this question or the answers of this question dosn't make any sense with any relegion in the world , why ?
because you will not find the answer you want in any relegion .
so it can't be relegion peoblem , its just phelosophy !
even if atheists if we consider it relegion , they allready believe that they be created by chance , and all the animals and all creations are created by chance (without creator) . so this question become useless also with atheist .
so i obey what mohammed (pbuh) said by saying
amanto bellah (i believe in god )
i believe that i created by God whatever history of our almighty God is , it will not get benfits for me
I believe in God too, and if someone wants proof of their existence they can search for him within and find him
Although in my opinion all Religions have Philosophy, Mythology and Rituals
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1
The Origin of Life - an Islamic Perspective Science must increase our faith. It is wrong for anyone to close their eyes to what is right in front of them. For a Muslim the evidence of dinosaurs and fossils is not a threat to our beliefs. Rather, it is a confirmation of the power of Allah.
Adapted from the Book: What Islam is All About By Yahiya Emerick
the rest of the article here
The Origin of Life - an Islamic Perspective (http://www.islamfortoday.com/emerick16.htm - broken link)
Interesting, as I get in touch more with your religion I see that you have progressive views over many things, please keep coming to the forum!
Consider the question: "Who created Allah?" The first premise underlying the question is that every thing (or being) known to exist in the world was created. The second premise is that Allah is known to exist in the world. So the conclusion is that Allah also was created...right?
We receive many Emails from Muslims and Hindus who honestly believe that their religion is the largest in the world. The available data seems to indicate that they are wrong. However, at current growth rates, Islam will overtake Christianity as the world's dominant religion later in the 21st century.
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,506 posts, read 4,278,870 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1
Consider the question: "Who created Allah?" The first premise underlying the question is that every thing (or being) known to exist in the world was created. The second premise is that Allah is known to exist in the world. So the conclusion is that Allah also was created...right?
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