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Old 05-06-2008, 01:17 PM
 
Location: morocco
69 posts, read 137,894 times
Reputation: 27

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All of the creatures, the first and subsequent ones, must have a Creator Who brought them to existence, because they neither can bring themselves into existence, nor they could have come to exist by coincidence! The creatures could have not brought themselves to existence because a thing does not create it self –since prior to its existence it was nothing – so how could it be a creator? And it cannot accidentally bring into being, because every occurrence (novelty, etc.) must need an originator. Also because its existence in such highly magnificent order and homogenous coordination, and due to the coherent relationship between the means and the causes , and the creators with one another , it is absolutely impossible that is very being is coincidental . ( In fact) , what is ( believed) to exist as a result of coincidence , does not follow an ordered pattern at the beginning of its existence . so how could it remain to be ordered during its course of survival and development?

So if its impossible that the creatures have neither brought themselves into existence nor they did they came to exist by coincidence , then it becomes evident that they must have a creator , and He is Allaah , the Rabb of the world.



Allaah stated the above rational and decisive proof in Soorat Al-Tur , saying:
Were they created by nothing , or they themselves the creators? { Qura’an 25:35} , Which means that they were neither created without a creator , nor they were the creators of themselves . It becomes clear , therefore , that their Creator is Allaah . That is why when Jubair Bin Mut’im heard Allaah’s Messenger reciting Soorat At-Tur , and when he ( the prophet) reached the Aayaat:


Were they created by nothing , or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay , but they have no firm to believe . Or are the treasures of your Raab with them? Or are they the tyrants with authority to do as they like?



Jubair , who was then a Mushrik ( polytheist), commented:


“ My heart was about to fly (i.e upon hearing this firm argument) . In another separate narration, he said: “And that was the time when Eemaan was first settled in my heart”


Let us give a parable that clarifies this matter: If some one tells you about a lofty palace , surrounded by gardens with rivers flowing in between , fully furnished with beds and mattresses, and decorated with all kinds of ornament, the basic , and the luxurious , then he says to you : “ This palace in all the of its perfection , has founded itself , or that it came to exit by coincidence , without a founder !” Immediately you will deny and reject his argument, and you will consider his talks as ridiculous. (With this in mind) is it, therefore , possible that this universe with its extended earth , skies , planets , conditions, wonderful and splendid order , could have brought itself into existence ? Or that it came to exist without a Creator?


Exstracted from this book :
http://www.binothaimeen.com/soft/lang/FundamentalsOfFaith.exe
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:53 PM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,450,832 times
Reputation: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
All of the creatures, the first and subsequent ones, must have a Creator Who brought them to existence, because they neither can bring themselves into existence, nor they could have come to exist by coincidence! The creatures could have not brought themselves to existence because a thing does not create it self –since prior to its existence it was nothing – so how could it be a creator? And it cannot accidentally bring into being, because every occurrence (novelty, etc.) must need an originator. Also because its existence in such highly magnificent order and homogenous coordination, and due to the coherent relationship between the means and the causes , and the creators with one another , it is absolutely impossible that is very being is coincidental . ( In fact) , what is ( believed) to exist as a result of coincidence , does not follow an ordered pattern at the beginning of its existence . so how could it remain to be ordered during its course of survival and development?

So if its impossible that the creatures have neither brought themselves into existence nor they did they came to exist by coincidence , then it becomes evident that they must have a creator , and He is Allaah , the Rabb of the world.



Allaah stated the above rational and decisive proof in Soorat Al-Tur , saying:
Were they created by nothing , or they themselves the creators? { Qura’an 25:35} , Which means that they were neither created without a creator , nor they were the creators of themselves . It becomes clear , therefore , that their Creator is Allaah . That is why when Jubair Bin Mut’im heard Allaah’s Messenger reciting Soorat At-Tur , and when he ( the prophet) reached the Aayaat:


Were they created by nothing , or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay , but they have no firm to believe . Or are the treasures of your Raab with them? Or are they the tyrants with authority to do as they like?



Jubair , who was then a Mushrik ( polytheist), commented:


“ My heart was about to fly (i.e upon hearing this firm argument) . In another separate narration, he said: “And that was the time when Eemaan was first settled in my heart”


Let us give a parable that clarifies this matter: If some one tells you about a lofty palace , surrounded by gardens with rivers flowing in between , fully furnished with beds and mattresses, and decorated with all kinds of ornament, the basic , and the luxurious , then he says to you : “ This palace in all the of its perfection , has founded itself , or that it came to exit by coincidence , without a founder !” Immediately you will deny and reject his argument, and you will consider his talks as ridiculous. (With this in mind) is it, therefore , possible that this universe with its extended earth , skies , planets , conditions, wonderful and splendid order , could have brought itself into existence ? Or that it came to exist without a Creator?


Exstracted from this book :
http://www.binothaimeen.com/soft/lang/FundamentalsOfFaith.exe
And who/what created Allah?
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Old 05-06-2008, 02:49 PM
 
Location: morocco
69 posts, read 137,894 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by laysayfair View Post
And who/what created Allah?
This question is inherently false and self contradictory. If we were to say for the sake of argument -that some one created Allah then you would ask who created the creator of the creator? Then who created the creator of the creator of the creator? And so on,...................
This is irrational and impossible.
Quran tells us:
" Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah The Eternal, the Absolute (The self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks);
He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or like Him." [112:1-4]
[Means, the Creator can never be equated with the created!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]No one created Him. He is the First and the Last. He created everything other than Himself.
This is what makes sense and is logical.
Prophet Muhammed (s.a.w.) said:
" People will keep on asking questions until some one will say ,
' Allah created the universe but who created Allah?' Whoever encounters that let him say:
"AmantuBillah (I believe in Allah.)'"
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Old 05-06-2008, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,844,408 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
This question is inherently false and self contradictory. If we were to say for the sake of argument -that some one created Allah then you would ask who created the creator of the creator? Then who created the creator of the creator of the creator? And so on,...................
This is irrational and impossible.
Quran tells us:
" Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah The Eternal, the Absolute (The self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks);
He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or like Him." [112:1-4]
[Means, the Creator can never be equated with the created!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]No one created Him. He is the First and the Last. He created everything other than Himself.
This is what makes sense and is logical.
Prophet Muhammed (s.a.w.) said:
" People will keep on asking questions until some one will say ,
' Allah created the universe but who created Allah?' Whoever encounters that let him say:
"AmantuBillah (I believe in Allah.)'"
It is as logical and makes as much sense as any other mythical origins story.
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:34 PM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,450,832 times
Reputation: 1425
Quote:
Originally Posted by souhilo1 View Post
This question is inherently false and self contradictory. If we were to say for the sake of argument -that some one created Allah then you would ask who created the creator of the creator? Then who created the creator of the creator of the creator? And so on,...................
This is irrational and impossible.
Quran tells us:
" Say: He is Allah the One and Only;
Allah The Eternal, the Absolute (The self-sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats or drinks);
He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or like Him." [112:1-4]
[Means, the Creator can never be equated with the created!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]No one created Him. He is the First and the Last. He created everything other than Himself.
This is what makes sense and is logical.
Prophet Muhammed (s.a.w.) said:
" People will keep on asking questions until some one will say ,
' Allah created the universe but who created Allah?' Whoever encounters that let him say:
"AmantuBillah (I believe in Allah.)'"
Yes, the question is inherently contradictory, and so is the answer.
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,273,104 times
Reputation: 4279
Actually, for a second there, I had to stop and make sure I was reading the proofs for the Muslim God and not the Christian one. The arguments seem exactly the same to me..

As far as who or what created the creator, I think that's a very valid question. I think it's actually a bit ignorant to just write off the infinite regression one must perform to answer the question to suit one's own spiritual beliefs.
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:52 PM
 
Location: South Central PA
1,562 posts, read 3,904,089 times
Reputation: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidus View Post
It is as logical and makes as much sense as any other mythical origins story.


It's about as logical as the FSM
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,844,408 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marodi View Post
It's about as logical as the FSM
Yep. I agree.
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in the middle
600 posts, read 1,153,983 times
Reputation: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Actually, for a second there, I had to stop and make sure I was reading the proofs for the Muslim God and not the Christian one. The arguments seem exactly the same to me..

As far as who or what created the creator, I think that's a very valid question. I think it's actually a bit ignorant to just write off the infinite regression one must perform to answer the question to suit one's own spiritual beliefs.
Isn't it true that those who believe in the big bang believe that the elements that caused it to occur have always been present in the universe? In other words, nothing caused them to come into existance, they've just always been here right? If you can believe that, then why is it so hard for you to understand the Christian belief that God has always existed...that He wasn't created but has just always been? Seems like the same basic concept to me.
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:16 PM
 
Location: An absurd world.
5,165 posts, read 8,261,348 times
Reputation: 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deb in VA View Post
Isn't it true that those who believe in the big bang believe that the elements that caused it to occur have always been present in the universe? In other words, nothing caused them to come into existance, they've just always been here right? If you can believe that, then why is it so hard for you to understand the Christian belief that God has always existed...that He wasn't created but has just always been? Seems like the same basic concept to me.
Because creationists insist that everything needs a creator and required a beginning, but they try to exclude their god. That is a contradiction.
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