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Old 05-22-2008, 12:37 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,802,922 times
Reputation: 1573

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Originally Posted by juj
Quote:
There's a little difference between suicide and a government killing you. But of course, with your intense negativity, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
It seems to me that you fear free choice and that you label everyone who disagrees with you as intensely negative.

Even Jesus had the choice of not dying on the cross, so why don't you label Jesus as being negative?
Is it because you believe he was resurrected?
But how can you call Jesus' death on the cross a true sacrifice when you know that he will come back?
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,658,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
And here I thought that education is only an investment.
You make it sound as if surgeons lead a horrible life and that they only become surgeons because of the money they earn.
There are some doctors who go to 3rd world countries and perform surgery there under 'primitive' conditions, not because of the money they earn (which is 'nothing' compared to what they would make if they stayed in their own country), but because they are living their dream and do work that they find is essential.
Oh yes surgeons lead an absolute horrible life. They save people and make a good living in the meantime, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. We were talking about why a surgeon makes more than a garbage man would. You just love taking quotes out of context. It already takes years for a surgeon to pay off the student loans, they would be paying their entire life, and their kids as well if they made a salary equal to a garbage man. I am sure those surgeons that do go to 3rd world countries have already made enough money to pay off those loans.

Quote:
To human society picking up trash and performing surgery are both equally important.
Surgeons cannot perform surgery without nurses so nurses are as important to health care as the surgeons.
The fact that a surgeon sees himself as a 'bigger' cog in the machine is irrelevant.
Without the many cogs the machine will fall apart.
A surgeon is a "bigger" cog in the machine. You can have every nurse in the world in a operating room but if none of them can perform the surgery, that person is going to die. Technically a surgeon does not have to have a nurse in there, while it is helpful, I am sure if push came to shove they could do it all themselves, depending upon the procedure. But anyway.... I do see what you are saying with the "bigger picture" mentality but in the grand scheme or things, some "cogs" are bigger than others, it's just the way it is. All in all you do need everyone working together for everything to run smooth.

Quote:
So a surgeon needs his nurses as much as a patient needs health care.
The problem is that the 'free market' encourages choosing for your own best interest, which explains why surgeons need to pay a lot to earn a lot (because everyone has to make a profit).
The thing is that a surgeon needs his patients as much as a patient needs a surgeon, but a surgeon can pick and choose while a patient cannot.
Which essentially means that in a Ďfree economyí the doctors can control the price, because a surgeon has time on his side.
So are you saying you are for a government run healthcare? As good as it sounds, there are a ton of problems with it. Like waiting forever just to see a doctor, there are less doctors than in a free market, etc. If I am having a procedure done, I'd rather go to an "A" doctor rather then to a "C" doctor. It is my money and my body, I would like the best care I can get.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:43 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,802,922 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by HsvMike
Quote:
You just love taking quotes out of context. It already takes years for a surgeon to pay off the student loans, they would be paying their entire life, and their kids as well if they made a salary equal to a garbage man. I am sure those surgeons that do go to 3rd world countries have already made enough money to pay off those loans.
I dont take anything out of context. You believe that becoming a surgeon is only an economical decision, while I disagree.
Take Patch Addams for example.
But I guess most people become surgeons because of the (social) status it would bring them or the financial reward. It would be illogical to undertake things which would not get you ahead in life, right?
I mean in your view Jesus could only have been a capitalist.

Quote:
A surgeon is a "bigger" cog in the machine.
So tell me, would a surgeon then make his own tools?
And what would a surgeon do if there were no patients?
Or if there were patients but none of them could afford him?

Quote:
It is my money and my body, I would like the best care I can get.
I guess you prove my point, that when it comes to capitalism the end result will eventually be that it is every man for himself.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,658,482 times
Reputation: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
I dont take anything out of context. You believe that becoming a surgeon is only an economical decision, while I disagree.
Take Patch Addams for example.
But I guess most people become surgeons because of the (social) status it would bring them or the financial reward. It would be illogical to undertake things which would not get you ahead in life, right?
I mean in your view Jesus could only have been a capitalist.
You are the one that brought up compensation, not me. I think a lot of doctors go into their profession so they can help people, I don't think it is all about the money.

How did Jesus get thrown into the mix here? We are talking about the differences between two occupations.

Quote:
So tell me, would a surgeon then make his own tools?
And what would a surgeon do if there were no patients?
Or if there were patients but none of them could afford him?
We can go around in circles all day like this. If there were no surgeons then patients could not be healed and all those tools would go to waste and vice versa.


Quote:
I guess you prove my point, that when it comes to capitalism the end result will eventually be that it is every man for himself.
I'd rather pay more for healthcare then to die because it took so long for me to get an appointment for a doctor. When my family is sick, I like it that I can get them in to see a doctor that day. Convienience always has a higher price tag. But my family's health is worth it. And yes I do put their health and well being over anyone else's. If I am wrong, then so be it.
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Old 05-23-2008, 12:37 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,802,922 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by HsvMike
Quote:
How did Jesus get thrown into the mix here? We are talking about the differences between two occupations.
Are you claiming that Christians have no occupations?
The thing is that if you are truly religious you cannot split off religion from how you earn money. Like I said before and I remember you agreeing with me is that you cannot be a 9 to 5 Christian.

Quote:
If there were no surgeons then patients could not be healed and all those tools would go to waste and vice versa.
It is quite simple, if people did not specialize there could be no surgeon. A surgeon would not have the time to study surgery if he also has to gather his own food. Therefore each specialisation is equally important, because if there were no constructionists, architects, garbage men, and street sweepers etc. there canít be any surgeons. It is only an illusion that the time of a surgeon is more important than the time of a street sweeper, because if the street sweeper would not have swept the street the surgeon would have to do it.

Quote:
When my family is sick, I like it that I can get them in to see a doctor that day. Convienience always has a higher price tag.
What you are saying comes close to the Nazis philosophy of creating more lebensraum; their solution was the extermination of the Jews.
To the Nazis it was only logical that the Nazi family comes first and they didn't mind at all that the Jews had to pay for it with their lives.
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,658,482 times
Reputation: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Are you claiming that Christians have no occupations?
The thing is that if you are truly religious you cannot split off religion from how you earn money. Like I said before and I remember you agreeing with me is that you cannot be a 9 to 5 Christian.
Ok I will put it like this, Jesus would not have been a capitalist, republican, democrat or anything else.

Quote:
It is quite simple, if people did not specialize there could be no surgeon. A surgeon would not have the time to study surgery if he also has to gather his own food. Therefore each specialisation is equally important, because if there were no constructionists, architects, garbage men, and street sweepers etc. there canít be any surgeons. It is only an illusion that the time of a surgeon is more important than the time of a street sweeper, because if the street sweeper would not have swept the street the surgeon would have to do it.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this. We can go in circles forever on this even though I do know what you are saying, and hopefully you know what I am saying as well.

Quote:
What you are saying comes close to the Nazis philosophy of creating more lebensraum; their solution was the extermination of the Jews.
To the Nazis it was only logical that the Nazi family comes first and they didn't mind at all that the Jews had to pay for it with their lives.
This is one of the most outlandish quotes I have seen you make. Step lightly with comparisons like this, family members of mine were killed by the Nazis because they would not fall in line with their way of thinking, and no they were not Jewish either. I am putting my family before everyone else, not a large group of people or a race. Huge difference.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:08 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,802,922 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by HsvMike
Quote:
I am putting my family before everyone else, not a large group of people or a race.
But you have to admit that your line of thinking is along the same line as that of the Nazis, you both put your own family first.
It doesn't matter if you keep it restricted to your own family because to racists your race is your family.
Not that I am saying that you are a racists but even racists will put their own family above all others.
If you ask me this is just an un-Christian thing to do anyway.
If God already has sacrificed his son for the greater good, why should a Christian not do the same?
The whole point of Jesusí philosophy is that there is no difference between us and them, that we are all us.
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Old 05-23-2008, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Toronto; Canada
123 posts, read 281,630 times
Reputation: 20
Default Actually there were more criminals...

... under Stalin's developed improving Idea for the working class telling the truth about how many hammers and how many syckles to organize in advance of reading the ledgers for the means of production of those old bureaucrats. The law you see was the law of the heart.

How come in America the contract law is constantly monitered against application to ongoing economy?

Last edited by KrisKr; 05-23-2008 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,658,482 times
Reputation: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
But you have to admit that your line of thinking is along the same line as that of the Nazis, you both put your own family first.
It doesn't matter if you keep it restricted to your own family because to racists your race is your family.
Not that I am saying that you are a racists but even racists will put their own family above all others.
If you ask me this is just an un-Christian thing to do anyway.
If God already has sacrificed his son for the greater good, why should a Christian not do the same?
The whole point of Jesusí philosophy is that there is no difference between us and them, that we are all us.
No honestly, it isn't anything compared to the Nazi's way of thinking. I am not misleading a demolished and broken country, building it up while secretly plotting to kill off an entire race and push through my own agenda of taking over the world. So no, putting my family first does not equate to the Nazis what-so-ever.

A non-Christian telling a Christian what is and isn't Christian. Wow I better start taking notes.

As far as sacraficing my son, I am not God, I am not perfect. That is one of my flaws, I would give my life in a second to save my kids or wife. I am greedy that I want them to be around a very long time. I try to be a Christ-like as I can knowing that it is not attainable, but I do the best I can.

Are you married, and do you have any children?
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Old 05-23-2008, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Toronto; Canada
123 posts, read 281,630 times
Reputation: 20
****, still at 11-reputation. I've gotta' answer one more time. Did anyone notice how Ahbedinejad's similar look to Freddie Mercury 'The Show must go on' , 'We are the Champions' and all that stuff? I'm not married at least for ten years now.

Last edited by KrisKr; 05-23-2008 at 11:09 AM.. Reason: spelling -ism
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