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Old 05-09-2008, 11:13 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,810,971 times
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Originally Posted by lakerat
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but, do you just hate the USA?
No I just hate hypocrites.
I don't care if they are Japanese, Dutch, American, Israel, Christian, Islam, Buddhist, atheist or Iraqis.
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,221 posts, read 2,659,872 times
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I think the main point here Tricky is that the American soldiers are not doing anything in the name of their religion. Be it right or wrong, they give and follow orders. So any torture that goes on has nothing to do with their religion or lack there of, it is their job.

While Islamic extremists, it has everything to do with their religion ( in their eyes ). I am not saying that the Muslim religion is violent as a whole, but the ones that are, are totally doing it in the name of their religion. This is the main difference from the terrorists and the American Soldiers.

IMO the Christians that bomb abortion clinics are just as much a terrorist, as the Muslims that kill innocent people.

I know where you are coming from with your views Tricky, I have family in Europe and know exactly how they feel about Americans in general. Just as Troop was saying about actually going to the Middle East and seeing how the people really are, more people should come to the United States and see how most of us really are. You just might be surprised. Propoganda does work both ways so you should spend some time here before you become an expert on the United States.

That was also a good point that someone brought up, why aren't the mainstream Muslim's speaking out against the fundamentalists instead of supporting and sticking up for them?
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Old 05-09-2008, 11:55 PM
 
488 posts, read 1,041,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by lakeratNo I just hate hypocrites.
I don't care if they are Japanese, Dutch, American, Israel, Christian, Islam, Buddhist, atheist or Iraqis.
That is fine but, you always cite torture at Gitmo. How the hell do you know what goes on there? I ask again, Have you been there?
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:41 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,810,971 times
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Originally Posted by HsvMike
Quote:
I think the main point here Tricky is that the American soldiers are not doing anything in the name of their religion.
They do it in the name of their nation which by large is Christian.
Jesus would not condone torture, so I don't think that Christians should condone it either. And if Jesus would know that someone was being tortured he would try to stop that.
Isn't this not why Jesus sacrificed himself?

Originally Posted by lakerat
Quote:
That is fine but, you always cite torture at Gitmo. How the hell do you know what goes on there? I ask again, Have you been there?
Did the US military ever deny they had used waterboarding on their prisoners or other forms of 'soft' torture on Gitmo?
Or are you simply unwilling to accept that the US military would use torture to get their information?

And I always cite the torture at Gitmo, because only true terrorists would use torture to get information from a person who is only suspected of having that information.
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Old 05-10-2008, 01:05 AM
 
488 posts, read 1,041,260 times
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O.K. Let me get this right. If someone makes an accusation, then that is FACT? I don't know, do you?
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Old 05-10-2008, 01:07 AM
 
79 posts, read 188,870 times
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[quote=Tricky D;3722155]Originally Posted by HsvMikeThey do it in the name of their nation which by large is Christian.
Jesus would not condone torture, so I don't think that Christians should condone it either. And if Jesus would know that someone was being tortured he would try to stop that.
Isn't this not why Jesus sacrificed himself?



Do you think you would never resort to some form of torture to get information out of someone who has maybe your closest family held somewhere and will not tell you where? just curious when in matters of life or death for you, do the rules that protect someones rights get blurred if at all.

Can you imagine a point at all when you would go ahead and toture someone...? I could make stuff up but i assume you can do that yourself.

Also how do you know what Jesus would or would'nt do...have you studied his beliefs? Jesus isn't a passifist. He is patient toward you for now but if your spirit will not yield to his own day you will see another side of him.
He taught on the subject many times of judgement.
His own angels will personally escort lost rebellious souls out of Gods presence forever. Thats the sad state of affairs in the spirit realm.
I would gladly be totured to be saved...if that makes any sense to you.
What would it profit me to gain the whole world, success, peace, quiet, labor, love and then in the end lose my soul.
Some skin, some pain, some blood are serious issues...but they will not stand between the right and the wrong...they will fall to one side or the other.
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Old 05-10-2008, 01:53 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,810,971 times
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Originally Posted by lakerat
Quote:
O.K. Let me get this right. If someone makes an accusation, then that is FACT? I don't know, do you?
I do, because your American government has admitted to the Dutch government that they have used our Dutch airports for transporting terrorist suspects to countries where torture is legal so they could be tortured. The American government lied to us because they knew that we would not support America with anything that involves torture.
This fact alone proves to me that the American government cannot be trusted, because they will even screw their allies, so imagine what America will do with their enemies or those who they only suspect of being an enemy.

Originally Posted by dirtrash
Quote:
Do you think you would never resort to some form of torture to get information out of someone who has maybe your closest family held somewhere and will not tell you where? just curious when in matters of life or death for you, do the rules that protect someones rights get blurred if at all.
Ah, yes the ancient eye for an eye retort.
I may not be a pacifist but I do not beat people up when I only suspect that they will attack me.
I only beat people up after they have tried to hit me.
Torturing people who are only suspected of being a terrorist will only get you false information.

BTW why should I believe anyone who squeals at the 1st sign of pain?
Anywayz, Christians who scoop to the level of terrorists are as bad as the terrorists they fight against.
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Old 05-10-2008, 04:52 AM
 
Location: illinois
62 posts, read 89,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
No, the Episopalians did not declare war on Ireland.
The Episcopalians did not invade Ireland.
The Episcopalians are not currently ensconced in the Northern tip of Ireland.

The word you are reaching for is ....... England! England, the UK, the Brits anyway you want to name 'em...they did it. They didn't even do it under the guise of religion, they did it for money, land and power...the same reason any government tries to overtake/overthrow another one.

You see, England is not a theocracy (the title given the Queen as being the head of the church is honorary only, and ironically originally given to King Henry VIII!) and that is why religion has no purpose in its decisions. Now there were a lot of instances of religious infighting between Catholics and Protestants, much like the Sunnis and Shiites....but that does not make for a Christian jihad.

Also, when speaking of the crimes of Christianity you must (in the confines of this discussion) keep it to organized faith --- an organized leadership within faith demanding horrid immoral acts of violance from its members a la the crusades. One nut case who blows up an abortion clinic does not the inquisition make.

All Muslims are not terrorists, let me be clear on that. But so far, most if not all terrorists have been Muslim, and all have been told that what they do is Holy. The middle of the road Muslims have not (that I know of) risen with disgust over this, nor have they stopped it themselves. For example: Westboro baptists are a bunch of crazies, and yes they have the first amendment right to show up at soldiers funerals and disrupt them with thier horrible messages. But what did American citizens do? We organized back. We found out where they were going to next, and they began to meet counter protests. I just wish those that follow Islam in the peaceful way I believe Mohummad intended would do more to stop those that have perveted Allahs word to nothing but hatred and death.
Given the fact that the over whelming majority of victims of terrorism (by al Qaida and it affiliates) are muslims, i find it mind boggling to say that main stream muslims did not speak out against this.

Having lived a huge chunck of the last ten years in the ME, it is clear to me that the majority of people are against Alqaida and all terrorist groups. Not because they want to appeaze us or anything, but because at the end of the day, they are the main victims of such actions.

Unless you expect all muslims to act at once as one, i don't see what do you mean by why have they not spoken out. If you search it, most muslim leaders of all sects have spoken out and condemned such acts. Unless you are expecting them to come out on CNN and speak out in english to satisfy our needs.
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Old 05-10-2008, 05:55 AM
 
Location: Western Cary, NC
4,349 posts, read 6,622,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Oh yes.....Pope Benedict "lil' Benny" XXlll, I remember your theories

Yes Christians have committed atrocities, and I bet tomorrow a Christian somewhere will kill somone. But that is not an organized religion ordering its followers to kill nonbelievers by any means necessary. Not even that evil pagan bastard 'Lil Benny'

Christians in history and modern day have worked to destroy/convert all who do not accept their faith. You seem to think the reformation is the last time. You are WRONG! Their modern day methods include the international banking system, murder, over throwing independent governments, stealing, money laundering, not to mention Serbia in the 1990’s.

The Vatican Bank, which is run, and controlled by the Pope, leads the battle in today's modern assault on non Christians. Action linked to this “Banking Organization” include hiding the gold stolen from the holocaust victims, attempted over throw of governments to set up catholic states, money laundering for the mob, insurance fraud, murders, and aiding the escape of war criminals after war II. Law suits too numerous to list against the Vatican Bank are springing up around the world. The efforts of the church to keeps it records closed have resulted in many out of court payments thus far. With several of the suits now in process the numbers are too big for even this Bank to settle out of court, and may result in the pealing back the layers of corruption which have haunted the human race for over two thousand years.

It is time for you to open your eyes. Search Vatican Bank on the net. Read a few of the suits, and their history. Than come back and tell me how good the Catholic Church is.
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Old 05-10-2008, 08:40 AM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,293,299 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illinoisjusticeman View Post
Given the fact that the over whelming majority of victims of terrorism (by al Qaida and it affiliates) are muslims, i find it mind boggling to say that main stream muslims did not speak out against this.

Having lived a huge chunck of the last ten years in the ME, it is clear to me that the majority of people are against Alqaida and all terrorist groups. Not because they want to appeaze us or anything, but because at the end of the day, they are the main victims of such actions.

Unless you expect all muslims to act at once as one, i don't see what do you mean by why have they not spoken out. If you search it, most muslim leaders of all sects have spoken out and condemned such acts. Unless you are expecting them to come out on CNN and speak out in english to satisfy our needs.
Yes, I do expect them to demonstrate, to organize to do something! Not for my needs, but for their own --- if they truely disagree with it.
There have been a few (oddly enough women) who are brave enough to try to change this, but with over a billion muslims worldwide...my God, the power they have to rout the enemy within if they so wanted. That boggles my mind.
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