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Old 11-17-2009, 09:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
the same is shariah
it's for crimes agianst others not against someone's particular beliefs
Adultery is not a crime against anyone . . . it is a sin and betrayal . . . but not a crime . . . yet it is a Hadd crime under Shariah. The Hadd crimes are the most serious (like Felonies) with specific punishments and no plea bargaining:

1. Murder;
2. Apostasy from Islam
3. Theft
4. Adultery
5. Defamation
6. Robbery
7. Alcohol-drinking [any intoxicants]
That list contains non-crimes as serious crimes.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:06 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Adultery is not a crime against anyone . . . it is a sin and betrayal . . . but not a crime . . . yet it is a Hadd crime under Shariah. The Hadd crimes are the most serious (like Felonies) with specific punishments and no plea bargaining:

as long as you commit adultery or drinking alkohol privatly , so it isn't crime
but when you commit it openly without shame in front of others , so it will be crime against the society , so that the condition in shariah to punish the adulteries or the drinkers is the existing of at least four witnesses against them
Quote:
1. Murder;
2. Apostasy from Islam
3. Theft
4. Adultery
5. Defamation
6. Robbery
7. Alcohol-drinking [any intoxicants]
That list contains non-crimes as serious crimes.
what is the serious crimes then ?
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:16 PM
 
40,053 posts, read 26,735,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
as long as you commit adultery or drinking alkohol privatly , so it isn't crime
but when you commit it openly without shame in front of others , so it will be crime against the society , so that the condition in shariah to punish the adulteries or the drinkers is the existing of at least four witnesses against them


what is the serious crimes then ?
1. Murder;
2. Apostasy from Islam
3. Theft
4. Adultery
5. Defamation
6. Robbery
7. Alcohol-drinking [any intoxicants]

Under Shariah all seven are considered serious crimes . . . the first four have specific punishments specified the last three do not . . . but the only actual serious crimes (felonies) in the list for any civilized country are:

1. Murder;
3. Theft
6. Robbery

Apostasy has no place in the law . . . but Shariah acknowledges NO separation between church and state. Adultery is NOt any kind of crime. Defamation is a civil offense and alcohol drinking is not a crime . . . but other drugs are. The breadth and depth of the imposition into the daily lives of its citizens is the major evil of Shariah . . . with the Quran, Sunna, Ijma, Qiyas, etc. etc.. All of it supposedly by the order of Allah . . . a demonstrably heinous God of the OT barbarism who apparently is so impotent He must have His puny creations force and brutalize His creations into submission.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:41 AM
 
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I'm against sharia law because I do not believe anyone has the right to impose, on society at large, a system of law or beliefs based in religion. That is up to an individual, and it is not the place of government.
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,477,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
as long as you commit adultery or drinking alkohol privatly , so it isn't crime
but when you commit it openly without shame in front of others , so it will be crime against the society , so that the condition in shariah to punish the adulteries or the drinkers is the existing of at least four witnesses against them


what is the serious crimes then ?
In Christianity there is a concept of sinning in the heart. Our past President said he sinned because he lusted after females sometimes. Christianity recognizes that none of us is perfect and that we, having sinned once, should ask forgiveness with sincerity and try again. It also recognizes that most bad things start with some human mind playing around with bad thoughts and we should strive to be in control of our own minds and desires.

I cannot see that a God would say 'this is a crime IF people see you doing it, but not a crime if you do it in private'. I also don't see any sort of loving God who would severely punish those who are imperfect, as we all are imperfect in some way.

Crime is a thing we do against society(our fellow man), and it is these laws that should hold us accountable, not God's.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,477,375 times
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Those poor young lads who slaughtered all of those people in Mumbai. They were ignorant and trusting of Islam. Islam was used to brainwash them into committing atrocities. God rest their souls. When you heard their handlers talking to them on the phone from such safe places, you certainly heard a mind that was sick and twisted and using these young innocents to complete plans that they, themselves, were too cowardly to do.

One of the boys did not even understand how to turn on the tap in a bathroom to get water.

The thing is, whenever ANY religion becomes dogmatic and DEMANDS things of people it can (and usually is) be turned into something incredibly cruel and unworthy of a true God. It becomes a weapon. People no longer behave from love of God and the willingness to do a good thing, but through fear.

That religion represents, not a loving Creator, but some perverted and ugly thing. It become the antithesis of true faith and brings the soul down and not up.

Sharia is some man made thing that pretends to be a religion. Most religions have seeds of evil in them, most religions have within them some sick fundamentalist group, but Sharia seems to be the greatest threat to civilization on the face of the earth at the present moment.

It seems we have two great evils today. One is militant Islam, which we at least recognize, and the other is the undue corporate influence on world governments, starting with our own. The second deserves much more press than it currently gets. It's a shame that Sharia can not figure out a way to oppose corporatism. Who knows, it could find alliances in very strange places?
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:45 PM
 
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I don't believe in Sharia because it is laws based on Islam. I am not muslim, so I refuse to follow the sharia. Asking why non-muslims don't follow sharia is rude and ignorant. A Jew never asks non-jews why they don't follow kosher laws or the halakha, so why would muslims try to force islamic laws on non-muslims? In hopes that they will eventually submit and convert? That is very rude.

Besides, I find the sharia laws and islam to be very disturbing. I'll give examples of heaven in Islam that I don't like.

1. How alcohol is not allowed to be drunk on Earth, but there are supposed to be rivers of wine in heaven.

2. How islamic men have many houris in heaven, and can basically fornicate in front of god (b/c they aren't married to the houris, are they?)

3. Basically, how hedonistic islamic views of heaven are. In the Koran, heaven is described in a very materialistic manner. Emphasis is placed on what pleasures man can get while in heaven (how beautiful and lithe the houris are, what foods and drinks there are), not on how man can praise God in heaven (like in Christianity) or place no special importance on the afterlife at all (Judaism hardly talks about the issue).

4. Muhammad claims that most women end up in hell.

I find Sharia laws bad because they are very unfair. Why would there be four witnesses to a rape, for example?
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:27 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marissy View Post
I find Sharia laws bad because they are very unfair. Why would there be four witnesses to a rape, for example?
i have no time now to respond , may be one or tw hour later
but for now i just wanna to tell you that rape for example dosn't require four witnesses in islam
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,260,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
as long as you commit adultery or drinking alkohol privatly , so it isn't crime
Wow, sounds like a lot of the Southern Baptists back in my home town.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:13 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,964,539 times
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Islam, if we're dealing in things like sharia, is partly an ideology of law rather than just a religion. So it is a bit different.

Anyway if you see something as a legal ideology/system than what you do privately is maybe not so important. At one time Catholics and Orthodoxy felt somewhat similar, if not quite the same. The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia I think even specifically states the difference between public and private apostasy. If say Jan Hus had abandoned Catholic thinking in the privacy of his own home than no one needs to care. However by doing so publicly he could undermine something that gives unity to his society and ultimately create chaos or war.

The closest analogy we might understand is the Constitution. Someone who privately believes the US Constitution was illegitimate, and that we should still be under the Articles of Confederation, is a harmless eccentric. Someone who espouses this view loudly and publicly could be seen as inspiring militia movements or something.

So as a legal code sharia doesn't need to care, per se, what's in your heart or mind. If you think of it just as a religion than this might seem to be like hypocritical aspects of Southern Christians, but thinking of Islamism (or to some extent Islam generally) just as a religion is maybe missing the point.
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