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Old 11-30-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Islam, if we're dealing in things like sharia, is partly an ideology of law rather than just a religion. So it is a bit different.

Anyway if you see something as a legal ideology/system than what you do privately is maybe not so important. At one time Catholics and Orthodoxy felt somewhat similar, if not quite the same. The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia I think even specifically states the difference between public and private apostasy. If say Jan Hus had abandoned Catholic thinking in the privacy of his own home than no one needs to care. However by doing so publicly he could undermine something that gives unity to his society and ultimately create chaos or war.

The closest analogy we might understand is the Constitution. Someone who privately believes the US Constitution was illegitimate, and that we should still be under the Articles of Confederation, is a harmless eccentric. Someone who espouses this view loudly and publicly could be seen as inspiring militia movements or something.

So as a legal code sharia doesn't need to care, per se, what's in your heart or mind. If you think of it just as a religion than this might seem to be like hypocritical aspects of Southern Christians, but thinking of Islamism (or to some extent Islam generally) just as a religion is maybe missing the point.
Yes, we in the West experienced the blending of religion and the state and most rejected it a long time ago. When the two mix there is godly authority given to the 'deciders' and there is a refusal to see shades of grey and to apply mercy. If the law is said to come from God then there can be no errors in it.

I can understand such a system creating pent up hostility in people which is not addressed because you don't sin in the mind according to them. No wonder it seems so easy to recruit violent young people from their midst.
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:12 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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It is or can be different in that the West had "two spheres" the clergy and the king. They were intermingled to the point that defying one was defying society, but they weren't quite the same thing.

In Islamism and some elements of classical Sunni Islam there is no clergy to interfere with the state or society. Islam is the society and the society is Islam. To separate Islam from the society would therefore make no sense unless you mean the right of non-Muslims to have a separate, albeit tributary, society. A right that was granted several places. In Christianity there was often the belief that the "throne and altar" were one, but this was maybe more analogous to a marriage than to a literal statement there is no difference. So in Christianity there was hostility to "divorcing" them, but it was not as logically weird sounding except maybe in some Eastern Orthodox nations.
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Old 12-01-2009, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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I have often witnessed in these forums a confusion within people claiming to be followers of Islam when it comes to conceptualizing why we, in the West, so much cherish the separation of church and state.
Our history has shown us that it often leads to irrationality and horrors and it is a phase of history that few would wish to repeat.

There is little hope for an Islamic world, as some dream, unless Islam itself changes.

Although those people oppressed by Islam make positive claims publicly, as decent people anywhere they must privately be horrified at some of the atrocities done in the name of their God.

There are, indeed, some who speak out against these things, but those who do so, even in Western countries are fearful of some religiously grown Muslim mafia type organization coming after them.

At least in an autocratic regime a person, as a last resort, can pray to God for deliverance of his people. In Sharia it is that very God who is performing the atrocities.

I think, in the West we have a tradition of respect for the autonomy of the individual and grant a citizen as many powers possible with the barrier that he not harm others. Cultures in which the person is subservient to the whole, or to supposed demands of an otherworldly source, although seeming very altruistic on paper, actually limit the development of the individual and produce a number of mentally unbalanced individuals without any discernible upside.

There will be no one society that best develops ALL people, but I would think that the ones which allow for the most freedoms probably offer the most hope of doing so.

Sharia is bondage. Followers refer to themselves as slaves. It is not a healthy thing to rear children with that mantra, I think. The mind ingests what it is exposed to and a series of pictures of beheadings, behandings, stonings, and referring to the self as a slave must influence the psyche in a negative way.

Are there good and wonderful things in the religion? I am sure there are - as other religions have long since determined to discard the ugliness within them (or hope to, at least), so shall Islam.
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Old 06-29-2010, 03:40 PM
 
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I am a Christian and the USA is a Christian nation! We cannot allow laws to be passed that are based on other religions.
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Old 06-29-2010, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highstake View Post
I am a Christian and the USA is a Christian nation! We cannot allow laws to be passed that are based on other religions.
If I may correct you...The US is NOT a Christian nation, and laws that are based on ANY religion cannot be passed.
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:37 PM
 
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Apparently this hateful societal institution of Islam needs to be continually exposed for the evil it is. Shariah acknowledges NO separation between church and state, economics, politics, the judiciary, socio-cultural behaviors . . . it is ALL under the rule of Allah. The breadth and depth of the imposition into the daily lives of citizens is the major evil of Shariah . . . with the Quran, Sunna, Ijma, Qiyas, etc. etc.. All of it supposedly by the order of Allah . . . a demonstrably heinous God of the OT barbarism who apparently is SO IMPOTENT He must have His puny creations force and brutalize His creations into submission.
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i argued many times in many forums about sharia in islam .
but all of them focused on why we impose islamic laws on nonmuslims
so i want for this discussion to be quite different here

my question is , if sharia law not contradict with commands of God of other relegions , why you deny it ?
is it because it's islamic ? or because it's issues oppose your relegion ?


so, what do you think sharia is ?

I would never want Sharia in my country. I live in a democratic country where women have rights and I want to keep it that way.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,815,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i argued many times in many forums about sharia in islam .
but all of them focused on why we impose islamic laws on nonmuslims
so i want for this discussion to be quite different here

my question is , if sharia law not contradict with commands of God of other relegions , why you deny it ?
is it because it's islamic ? or because it's issues oppose your relegion ?


so, what do you think sharia is ?
Hi elwill, I'm a universalist. I believe that God shall save everyone regardless of their crime. That doesn't mean there will not be punishment but it means that punishment become curtailment and that God shall cause the evil in all to be removed from all so that He shall inherit every re-newed soul as His own Child.

I have since believed that this Islamic believers believe that their god must destroy what it brought into the world that became evil in order to restore order. That to me is an inferior god that is not as capable or as Almighty as the God that I preach.

Now, I know that might be met with some anger by those that here such an opposing message but it is not my real intent. The intent is to be thought provoking to compare the god the opponent might preach to this one that I'm preaching.

Let me know your thoughts and concerns.

Paul
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Old 06-29-2010, 11:15 PM
 
2,088 posts, read 2,249,469 times
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Hi Elwill,

The answer is quite simple. The Constitution of the United States which is the SUPREME law of this country takes precedence over all other laws religious or otherwise. That includes the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, or whatever you worship. Since Sharia is a law of Islam, you can follow it in your personal life but you cannot force it on anyone else. The Constitution is the only set of laws that matter.
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Old 06-30-2010, 01:00 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i argued many times in many forums about sharia in islam .
but all of them focused on why we impose islamic laws on nonmuslims
so i want for this discussion to be quite different here

my question is , if sharia law not contradict with commands of God of other relegions , why you deny it ?
is it because it's islamic ? or because it's issues oppose your relegion ?


so, what do you think sharia is ?
I'm against sharia law imposed on EVERYBODY.

YouTube - Flagged Poetry mirrored - The True Justice of Sharia Law
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