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Old 05-20-2008, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,473,051 times
Reputation: 8776

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These were some concepts and discussions that were found interesting elsewhere, if anyone would care to discuss. The first few that are numbered begin with what some 'slave of God' actually thought were positive elements:

1. A husband should be respected by his wife in every way.
This is totally absurd, and speaks for itself. A husband who thinks and behaves in a not too bright way should not be respected. How will he learn to be smarter if he is not corrected? Many women have been ruined by marrying a dolt.

2. The husband has the right to a trustworthy and honest companion. (The same here goes for the wife too). For example, she should not lie about using birth control to stop him having a child...
This too, is not a good thing to the extent that a woman owns her own body and is correct to control the number of children she has. Ideally, she and her husband should discuss such things as birth control and abortion, especially before marriage, but the final decision must always be hers. Women are not to be thought of as breeding stock.

3. The husband has a right to sexual intimacy with his wife. She should not refuse him this right
Total lunacy! A woman has every right not to have sex. Anytime. If she wants sex, she must have a willing partner. A man has the same rights and responsibilities. Saying that a woman, whether married or not, must have sex with any man is rape and not legal in civilized countries. A woman is not a sex-aid for men.

4. If the husband doesn’t like someone, then the wife shouldn’t allow them to come to their house, she also shouldn’t accept presents from such people.
Many married couples have separate friends. The home is for both of them. If he has his cronies over one weekend, watching football, she should be equally able to have her book club friends over, as well. There should be graciousness on both sides to the other's guests.

Husbands and wives should discuss issues. In a marriage in which the partners are unequal in power, one often is acting like a parent which converts the other into a child, having to ask permissions. This is obviously wrong. A marriage is not a marriage if both parties are not cooperating freely with each other. A woman's role in Islam is more akin to slavery.

Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.
In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging not only for illicit sex (see reason no. nine), but also for drinking alcohol

After going through two previous confusing stages before coming down hard on drinkers and gamblers, the Quran finally prohibits alcohol and gambling in Sura 5:90—91; they do not prescribe the punishment of flogging, but the hadith does. A poor 'criminal' was brought to Muhammad who became angry:

The Prophet felt it hard (was angry) and ordered all those who were present in the house, to beat him [the drinker dragged into Muhammad's presence]. (Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6774—6775)


Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.
In 2004, Rania al—Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue. Scrolling three—fourths of the way down the link, the readers can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.

The Quran says:
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (MAS Abdel Haleem, the Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004)


Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.
In 2003, in Saudi Arabia a man had two teeth extracted under the law of retaliation.
In 2003, a court in Pakistan sentenced a man to be blinded by acid after he carried out a similar attack on his fiancee.

The Quran says:
5:45 And We ordained therein for them: Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal. But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers . . .). (Hilali and Khan, The Noble Qur'an, Riyadh: Darussalam, 1996)


Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.

The Quran says:
5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)


Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.

The Quran says:
5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, 34 unless they repent before you overpower them: in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)

Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.

In its 1991 Constitution, in Articles 108—113, Iran adopted the punishment of execution for sodomy.

In April 2005, a Kuwaiti cleric says homosexuals should be thrown off a mountain or stoned to death.

On April 7, 2005, it was reported that Saudi Arabia sentenced more than 100 men to prison or flogging for 'gay conduct.'

Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's cousin and highly reliable transmitter of hadith, reports the following about early Islam and Muhammad's punishment of homosexuals: . . .

'If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done' (Abu Dawud no. 4447).


Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.

Fornication:
In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging for illicit sex.

The Quran says:
24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. [This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime (illegal sex), but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's law]. (Hilali and Khan).

In December 2004, Amnesty International reports:
An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co—defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.

She is to be buried up to her chest and stoned to death.

This gruesome hadith passage reports that a woman was buried up to her chest and stoned to death:

And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al—Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on his face he cursed her . . . (Muslim no. 4206)


Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

In 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader issued a fatwa (legal decree) to assassinate Salman Rushdie, a novelist, who wrote Satanic Verses, which includes questions about the angel Gabriel's role in inspiring the Quran. Now the extremists in the highest levels in Iran have recently renewed the fatwa.

Islam orders apostates to be killed.
In Iran an academic was condemned to death for criticizing clerical rule in Iran. The rulers assert that he was insulting Muhammad and Shi'ite laws. He was charged with apostasy.

Apostates are those who leave Islam, like Salman Rushdie (see the linked article in no. three, above), whether they become atheists or convert to another religion. They are supposed to be killed according to the Quran, the hadith, and later legal rulings.


Obviously, being a sane person and having God's love within you, you will not agree with this, but others evidently do.
So, these are all subject to interpretation, therefore somewhat arbitrary.
All religions which include the Old Testament have cruelty built into them, which is one reason why it is not usually accepted as the law of the land.
Most people tend to accept only the good parts of their religion and not the bad.

There is a verse in the bible saying you should stone your children if they are disobedient.
Most people of biblical religions don’t even know that such a thought is in their religion, and would not dream of doing such a ridiculous and horrible thing.

To frame a question as comparing religons is wrong because Sharia becomes the law of the land, and not just a religious law.
In many countries, the religion grows and changes with the people.
In Christian countries, divorce was once unheard of and considered evil. These days people are living twice as long as they used to, and people are encouraged to learn and to grow and there is always a chance that the partner you choose as a young person is not the one you would wish to spend your declining years with.
This often causes both husbands and wives to treat each other well throughout the marriage.
Marriage, in the west, is primarily a legal contract.
How people choose to deal with it in their religions is a personal matter and not enforceable by law.
The law of the land should be fair and just and attempt to treat all people alike. If the religion disagrees with the law, it is the religion which must change.
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Old 05-21-2008, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,342 times
Reputation: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
These were some concepts and discussions that were found interesting elsewhere, if anyone would care to discuss. The first few that are numbered begin with what some 'slave of God' actually thought were positive elements:
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post

1. A husband should be respected by his wife in every way.
This is totally absurd, and speaks for itself. A husband who thinks and behaves in a not too bright way should not be respected. How will he learn to be smarter if he is not corrected? Many women have been ruined by marrying a dolt.


If he's a dolt, then she has the right not to marry him in the first place, also she has the right to divorce him if she cannot live with him (or doesn't bear to have sexual relationship with him), it is called the "kho'la" law, she must return back the dowry of course.

Also the husband should respect his wife by Islam law, it's a mutual relationship.


Quote:
2. The husband has the right to a trustworthy and honest companion. (The same here goes for the wife too). For example, she should not lie about using birth control to stop him having a child...
This too, is not a good thing to the extent that a woman owns her own body and is correct to control the number of children she has. Ideally, she and her husband should discuss such things as birth control and abortion, especially before marriage, but the final decision must always be hers. Women are not to be thought of as breeding stock.


This subject should be discussed bet. the couple, the final decision in any aspect in the relationship after discussion is for the man, but he is summoned by Islam to be kind to his wife and please her, discuss with her in any topic, of course this includes the decision to have a child.

Again marriage in Islam is built on caring, loving, mutual respect, discussing every issue; the final decision is for the husband, If the woman does not accept her husband or his decision, she has the right to divorce him as mentioned above.

Quote:

3. The husband has a right to sexual intimacy with his wife. She should not refuse him this right
Total lunacy! A woman has every right not to have sex. Anytime. If she wants sex, she must have a willing partner. A man has the same rights and responsibilities. Saying that a woman, whether married or not, must have sex with any man is rape and not legal in civilized countries. A woman is not a sex-aid for men.


Again this is mutual, the wife has the right to sexual intimacy with her husband, he should not refuse her this right.

And again she has the right to divorce him if she does not want to have sex with him.


Quote:

4. If the husband doesn’t like someone, then the wife shouldn’t allow them to come to their house, she also shouldn’t accept presents from such people.
Many married couples have separate friends. The home is for both of them. If he has his cronies over one weekend, watching football, she should be equally able to have her book club friends over, as well. There should be graciousness on both sides to the other's guests.

Husbands and wives should discuss issues. In a marriage in which the partners are unequal in power, one often is acting like a parent which converts the other into a child, having to ask permissions. This is obviously wrong. A marriage is not a marriage if both parties are not cooperating freely with each other. A woman's role in Islam is more akin to slavery.


Again this should be mutual, Islam summons the husband to be kind to his wife,
of course this includes not inviting persons she hates.

The husband has this right (not entering his house who he doesn't approve) because he is the leader of the family, the wife accepted him as a husband, all these issues are under the Islam clear orders for kindness and careness bet. the husband and wife.

Quote:
Islam commands that drinkers and gamblers should be whipped.
In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging not only for illicit sex (see reason no. nine), but also for drinking alcohol

After going through two previous confusing stages before coming down hard on drinkers and gamblers, the Quran finally prohibits alcohol and gambling in Sura 5:90—91; they do not prescribe the punishment of flogging, but the hadith does. A poor 'criminal' was brought to Muhammad who became angry:

The Prophet felt it hard (was angry) and ordered all those who were present in the house, to beat him [the drinker dragged into Muhammad's presence]. (Bukhari, Punishments, nos. 6774—6775)


I've never read or heard this tradition.

The punishment for a moslim drinking openly in a moslim country is whipping, provided that this does not make a permanent injury to him.

There is no investigation or police entering homes to search for drinks, the punishment is for the ones who openly drink.

This is a law in a moslim country where alcohol drinks should be originally banned.

There is a scholars' opinion allowing non molsims in the moslim state to make and drink alcoholic drinks. Just to mention.

In a country with majority of moslims, the Islamic law concerning banning alcoholic drinks should be respected,

Just compare the death rate due to drink related diseases and drink related car accidents and crimes in the west, to see the wisdom behind this law.




Quote:
Islam allows husbands to hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives.
In 2004, Rania al—Baz, who had been beaten by her husband, made her ordeal public to raise awareness about violence suffered by women in the home in Saudi Arabia.

Saudi television aired a talk show that discussed this issue. Scrolling three—fourths of the way down the link, the readers can see an Islamic scholar holding up sample rods that husbands may use to hit their wives.

The Quran says:
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (MAS Abdel Haleem, the Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004)


Islam does not allow the husband to brutally hit his wife, This verse is clarified by the prophet (pbuh), that the wife who is very bad behaving the first is to remind her, second is ignoring her in bed, third is hitting Only with a small stick like the toothbrush, just as a simple reminder. And the prophet Cleary clarified that the better man would never hit.

The Prophet (pbuh) Never hit any of his wives.

The prophet says (The best of you are the best to his wives, and I'm the best to my wives).

In the west, violence towards women is also a social problem as it is in all societies; religion has nothing to do with it. Any man who brutally hit his wife is a coward non moral non religious.


Quote:
Islam allows an injured plaintiff to exact legal revenge—physical eye for physical eye.
In 2003, in Saudi Arabia a man had two teeth extracted under the law of retaliation.
In 2003, a court in Pakistan sentenced a man to be blinded by acid after he carried out a similar attack on his fiancee.

The Quran says:
5:45 And We ordained therein for them: Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal. But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers . . .). (Hilali and Khan, The Noble Qur'an, Riyadh: Darussalam, 1996)


This is a normal law, if proven on the defendant, and the verse clearly invites the injured person to pardon the one who injured him, so no punishment in this case, and so he (the injured) will be rewarded by God.


Quote:

Islam commands that a male and female thief must have a hand cut off.

The Quran says:
5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)


This should be understood as a whole.

First , Not all thieves, only two kinds, as for my knowledge, The ones who enter homes (not pick pockets or shop lifters, or who steal by deceiving, steal from the state, steal from his parents, etc.), and the ones who does not return the borrowed.

Also there is no punishment if he steals when he or his wife or children are hungry.

In these two kinds if undoubting proven on the defendant, the punishment is meant to be as rare as possible and at the same time powerful enough to provide security to the society

The other categories (pick pockets or shop lifters, or who steal by deceiving, steal from the state, etc.), is dealt with in the "Tazeer" law with includes prison time.


Quote:
Islam commands that highway robbers should be crucified or mutilated.

The Quran says:
5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter, 34 unless they repent before you overpower them: in that case bear in mind that God is forgiving and merciful. (Haleem)


In the verse clearly there are different kinds of punishment including banishment from the land, (which is similar to prison), and so it's clear that the death punishment is for the ones who had killed and committed murder.

The criminal who use lethal weapons and threaten the whole security of the society should have appropriate punishments.

Consider the goal, which is making any person who wants to be such a criminal think a thousand times before doing so, the goal clearly justifies the punishment.

It's a legal system, punishment is due to the crime and the judge decides.

Quote:
Islam commands that homosexuals must be executed.

In its 1991 Constitution, in Articles 108—113, Iran adopted the punishment of execution for sodomy.

In April 2005, a Kuwaiti cleric says homosexuals should be thrown off a mountain or stoned to death.

On April 7, 2005, it was reported that Saudi Arabia sentenced more than 100 men to prison or flogging for 'gay conduct.'

Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's cousin and highly reliable transmitter of hadith, reports the following about early Islam and Muhammad's punishment of homosexuals: . . .

'If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done' (Abu Dawud no. 4447).


Homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, but to prove on a person any sexual crime it's either by confession or by four just witnesses seeing the actual event very clearly.

So the only ones who are punished are the ones broadcasting a video of the event or Having four persons to see the full sexual intercourse very clearly and then testify.

This is almost impossible except for the ones who openly defy the Islamic law in the moslim country.

So the goal is to make the ones who do so hide and not spread their disease to others, and of course clarifying the degree of the crime.

I have to note that female homosexuality is not punished by death, it has other legal punishment including "Tazeer" law which include prison time.


Quote:

Islam orders unmarried fornicators to be whipped and adulterers to be stoned to death.

Fornication:
In 2001, Iranian officials sentenced three men to flogging for illicit sex.

The Quran says:
24:2 The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. [This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime (illegal sex), but if married persons commit it (illegal sex), the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allah's law]. (Hilali and Khan).

In December 2004, Amnesty International reports:
An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co—defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.

She is to be buried up to her chest and stoned to death.


Again, to prove on a person any sexual crime it's either by confession or by four just witnesses seeing the actual event very clearly.

So the only ones who are punished are the ones broadcasting a video of the event or Having four persons to see the full sexual intercourse very clearly and then testify.

This is almost impossible except for the ones who openly defy the Islamic law in the moslim country.

In Egypt in a thousand moslim rule years we had no one stoned, cause no one confessed. This is the goal, to hide these crimes so as not to spread in the society.

Islam summons the moslim who fall in such a crime to repent to God and keep it a secret, do not tell anyone, and of course stop doing it.

Quote:

………And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al—Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on his face he cursed her . . . (Muslim no. 4206)


Again I have never read this tradition, Khaled ibn Alwaleed was a companion But he is not the prophet (pbuh).

No cursing should be made to the criminal in the punishment; the punishment itself is actually wiping out the sin so the punished comes to God forgiven from this sin.

And again the moslim who fall in such a crime should repent to God, stop doing it, and keep it a secret.

Quote:
Islam orders death for Muslim and possible death for non—Muslim critics of Muhammad and the Quran and even sharia itself.

In 1989, Iran's Supreme Leader issued a fatwa (legal decree) to assassinate Salman Rushdie, a novelist, who wrote Satanic Verses, which includes questions about the angel Gabriel's role in inspiring the Quran. Now the extremists in the highest levels in Iran have recently renewed the fatwa.

You seem to take Iran as an example, It's not an example of the whole moslim world.

There is no assassination in the Islamic law. If the person "moslim or non moslim" is in a foreign country "non moslim country" then the Islamic law does not apply to him.

And non moslims criticizing Islam are to be discussed and refuted peacefully in the moslim country.

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from his path, and who receive guidance."
Holy Qur'an Chapter 16 verse no 125.

As for a moslim in moslim country who criticizes known basic Islamic fundamentals, Only If the judge judges that he is an apostate, then he decides the punishment, in an opinion death, but there is another opinion that does not include death, only divorcing the moslim wife.



Quote:
Islam orders apostates to be killed.
In Iran an academic was condemned to death for criticizing clerical rule in Iran. The rulers assert that he was insulting Muhammad and Shi'ite laws. He was charged with apostasy.

Apostates are those who leave Islam, like Salman Rushdie (see the linked article in no. three, above), whether they become atheists or convert to another religion. They are supposed to be killed according to the Quran, the hadith, and later legal rulings.


Apostasy has different openions is Islam. Each opinion has its' proofs, the Holly Qur'an does not define a punishment, so it's left to the understanding of some traditions and their historical authenticity.

In Egypt legally there no death punishment, but there are other legal issues such as divorcing the moslim wife which is agreed upon since a moslim lady should not marry a non moslim man.

Again Iran is not the example, to decide that a person is an apostate he must deny a basic fundamental in Islam, and only by lawful judge and again there's no such thing as assassination.

Moslims are not allowed to carry out punishment by themselves even if the state does not apply the Islamic law, it's a legal system which is the sole right of the state alone, and does not apply in non moslim countries, this is a basic Islamic law principle.

We must be aware that the opinion of death punishment after the defendant having three days to discuss with scholars, depends on the known fact the no one can be forced ever to join Islam, so it's telling anyone to think twice before joining, he must be 100% sure cause it's a one way choice, cause we want only strong believers. So you are free not to join, but to join you must be 100% determined. And if you want to commit apostasy afterwards you have three days to discuss and return back to Islam or the punishment.

The second opinion (by respected scholars including the mufti of Egypt prof. Ali Gomaa) differentiate bet. two kinds of apostates, the one who commit this crime then he summons people to join him and make propaganda, or begin a civil war against the moslim state. this is where prison or banning from entering the country, ect. apply.

The other kind is only committing this crime and keeps it personal without summoning anyone to it, or making any disturbance or propaganda. This person is only divorced firm his moslim wife, no other punishment

Remember that in the (hudaybai) truce treaty bet. the prophet (pbuh) and (quraish) there was a statement the any moslim who comes back to Quraish as an apostate, and being pagan again, moslims will not punish him or follow him.
and the prophet (pbuh) agreed on that, this was few years before the prophet's (pbuh) death.

All the apostats as I read and the scholar searched who was punished by death had killed an innocent moslim or done a terrible crime.

All the verses talking about apostates talk about the very hard punishment in the other life, no direct order of a punishment in this life by moslims.

(There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in God (Allah) hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. God (Allah) is Hearer, Knower.) holy Qur'aan Surah 2. Al-Baqara, verse no. 256.


(And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?.) holy Qur'aan Surah 10. Yunus, verse no. 99.

Quote:

Obviously, being a sane person and having God's love within you, you will not agree with this, but others evidently do.
So, these are all subject to interpretation, therefore somewhat arbitrary.
All religions which include the Old Testament have cruelty built into them, which is one reason why it is not usually accepted as the law of the land.
Most people tend to accept only the good parts of their religion and not the bad.

There is a verse in the bible saying you should stone your children if they are disobedient.
Most people of biblical religions don’t even know that such a thought is in their religion, and would not dream of doing such a ridiculous and horrible thing.

To frame a question as comparing religons is wrong because Sharia becomes the law of the land, and not just a religious law.
In many countries, the religion grows and changes with the people.
In Christian countries, divorce was once unheard of and considered evil. These days people are living twice as long as they used to, and people are encouraged to learn and to grow and there is always a chance that the partner you choose as a young person is not the one you would wish to spend your declining years with.
This often causes both husbands and wives to treat each other well throughout the marriage.
Marriage, in the west, is primarily a legal contract.
How people choose to deal with it in their religions is a personal matter and not enforceable by law.
The law of the land should be fair and just and attempt to treat all people alike. If the religion disagrees with the law, it is the religion which must change.



The problem is not religion, it's how we understand the religion, the problem is dictatorship, When the church ruled Europe, Europe entered dark ages, while when moslim were following their religion they were the most civilized nations of the world where moslims and non moislims lived peacefully. (no offence at all)

There are some moslim scholars who oppose democracy, saying that the moslim country should be ruled by Islamic law with no discussion.

There are also the scholars who encourages democracy.


The ones who oppose democracy ignore the clear fact that non fundamental issues in Islam have different opinions regarding each topic, and Islam since it's early stages allowed and welcomed these different scholars opinions, and allowed "igtehad" which is using the mind to understand and make opinions, cause this is the mercy of Islam, and cause this confirms the suitability of Islam for any culture or society.


So the opinions chosen by the state regarding any topic should be decided by the people's council, though also political parties can be made, and though democracy does not contradict at all with Islam law.

Last edited by mahmoud mrt; 05-21-2008 at 07:45 AM..
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Old 05-21-2008, 11:02 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mahmoud mrt View Post
Again I have never read this tradition, Khaled ibn Alwaleed was a companion But he is not the prophet (pbuh).

No cursing should be made to the criminal in the punishment; the punishment itself is actually wiping out the sin so the punished comes to God forgiven from this sin.
hi , my brother , thank you for your sharing
it's been a while i didn't see you here
just wanna to say that i know this hadith , it's correct
but anti_islamic sites copy the hadeeth incomplete , they not honest with knowldge of islam , so i will copy for you the complete one

Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Burayda (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates on the authority of his father…. “Then came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) a woman from Ghamid and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed adultery, so purify me.” He (the Messenger of Allah) turned her away. On the following day she said: “O Messenger of Allah! Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant.” He (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child).” When she delivered, she came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) with the child wrapped in a piece of cloth and said: “Here is the child whom I have given birth to.” He (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Go away and suckle him until you wean him.” When she had weaned him, she came to him with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand and said: “O Prophet of Allah! Here is the child, as I have weaned him and he eats food. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid ibn al-Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and because of it blood spurted on the face of Khalid and so he cursed her. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) heard him (Khalid) cursing her, hence he said: “O Khalid, be gentle. By Him(God) in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) gave order regarding her, hence he prayed over her and she was buried. (Sahih Muslim, no: 1695)

so as we see , the prophet turn her away more than three times , but she insist to be bunished by her own will , as an actual repent for her act

i wonder why always anti_islamic sites ignore the entire hadeeth , and focus just in part of it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by elwill; 05-21-2008 at 11:33 AM..
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Egypt
125 posts, read 263,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
hi , my brother , thank you for your sharing
it's been a while i didn't see you here
just wanna to say that i know this hadith , it's correct
but anti_islamic sites copy the hadeeth incomplete , they not honest with knowldge of islam , so i will copy for you the complete one

Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Burayda (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates on the authority of his father…. “Then came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) a woman from Ghamid and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed adultery, so purify me.” He (the Messenger of Allah) turned her away. On the following day she said: “O Messenger of Allah! Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant.” He (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child).” When she delivered, she came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) with the child wrapped in a piece of cloth and said: “Here is the child whom I have given birth to.” He (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Go away and suckle him until you wean him.” When she had weaned him, she came to him with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand and said: “O Prophet of Allah! Here is the child, as I have weaned him and he eats food. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid ibn al-Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and because of it blood spurted on the face of Khalid and so he cursed her. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) heard him (Khalid) cursing her, hence he said: “O Khalid, be gentle. By Him(God) in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) gave order regarding her, hence he prayed over her and she was buried. (Sahih Muslim, no: 1695)

so as we see , the prophet turn her away more than three times , but she insist to be bunished by her own will , as an actual repent for her act

i wonder why always anti_islamic sites ignore the entire hadeeth , and focus just in part of it !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks bro., I really appreciate it,

I knew the event but when it was told so twisted and corrupted i thought he was talking about another event, sadly this is the strategy of anti Islamic sites.

Never mind, i'm really glad to know you, we could be very good friends, wait for private massaging from me bro.

Salam,
Peace
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Old 09-25-2008, 07:05 PM
 
8 posts, read 14,328 times
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Default This is the goal

from above... this is the goal, to hide these crimes....

since when is the development of deceit and counterfeiting the goal of God?

Perhaps the reason that deception, hypocracy, and unfair measures (such as being unjust for the sake of the wealthy or the poor, or hiding one adulturer while elevating another, and not being just and balanced as God has always promoted (under the fist of God's violence there has always been the equality and balance of understanding (God didn't say, let those who are wealthy get away with adultery, or, let go the rich man but put to death the poor woman, God was always balanced in scriptures) have spread so much in areas is because of this view ....what better way to encourage people to be liars and manipulators than to say that whoever is honest is punished, but whoever is able to conceal what they do the best is let off?
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,144 posts, read 5,106,815 times
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Is this just scriptural witnessing or is there any actual claim being made. The websites give no valid empirical evidence and there isn't any evidentiary substance to support any claim, supposing there is one.
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:30 PM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,241,089 times
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Muslims do NOT worship the same God as Christians and Jews, please let me clearly state this fact.

Muslims worhip Allah - derived from their worship of the Moon God in ancient times.

Jews/Christians worship Jehovah.

Theres no God like Jehovah. One True God.
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:03 PM
 
8 posts, read 14,328 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
Muslims do NOT worship the same God as Christians and Jews, please let me clearly state this fact.

Muslims worhip Allah - derived from their worship of the Moon God in ancient times.

Jews/Christians worship Jehovah.

Theres no God like Jehovah. One True God.

are you sure? I was raised Christian, and have read the majority of texts relating to Judaism and Islam at least once (working on reading them more in depth with commentary) in an effort to understand. While the flavour of the dish always impacts the taste of the food, a great deal of Islam (not as practiced, but as written in good chunks of the Quran) really sounds an awful lot like God. God has a very systematic way about Him thats well reflected in the words of a variety of prophets and that same attitude echoes into the Quran. Thats not to say that what Muslims say about God is accurate, but what most Christians and Jews say about God tends to reflect their lack of knowledge about scriptures too. I'm not saying for SURE, and I definitely would debate the meanings of various words (such as "forever" (Moses used to use it to mean, "to this day" which isn't to THIS day, but rather "for a long time" - and while Muslims might contest this, I suggest the angel did as Moses did)) as well as the passing down of various portions but at the various Christian councils (like Nicaea) they sorted through info so it isnt unheard of). The general direction of the Muslims (imagining the point of understanding they were at when Mohammed arrived and then plotting it to their general understandings now ...regardless of practice) really is God's usual direction (as compared to lets say other belief systems), and many of the statements and attitudes attributed directly to God by the angel in the Quran are just echoes of the old and accepted prophets though not of course, of practice. Anyway, I'm still studying to find out, reading everything I can, both accepted clerics and also assorted blogs and things trying to get a fluid understanding. Most Christians I hear don't have solidified notions as to why not.... what are yours?
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:15 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
Muslims do NOT worship the same God as Christians and Jews, please let me clearly state this fact.

Muslims worhip Allah - derived from their worship of the Moon God in ancient times.

Jews/Christians worship Jehovah.

Theres no God like Jehovah. One True God.
What are you talking about?

Allah means God, the Quran is a book which followed the Torah and Bible.

Allah, or GOD, is not derived from any "MOON GOD"
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:18 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
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How does anyone even get past the OP here?
It is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo looooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnggggggggg.
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