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Old 11-11-2008, 06:52 AM
 
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Quote:
so as we see , the prophet turn her away more than three times , but she insist to be bunished by her own will , as an actual repent for her act
It seemed to me she was not at all "turned away"; she was led on to raise her child to near self-sufficiency. Then when she was no longer needed she was promptly killed.

I dont see where she "insisted to be punished by her own will!" No mention of any such thing in the section you quote. Am I misunderstanding something?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sana99 View Post
from above... this is the goal, to hide these crimes....

since when is the development of deceit and counterfeiting the goal of God?

Perhaps the reason that deception, hypocracy, and unfair measures[...] have spread so much in areas is because of this view ....what better way to encourage people to be liars and manipulators than to say that whoever is honest is punished, but whoever is able to conceal what they do the best is let off?
Excellent question!

It seems the moral of the cruel story of the woman who was stoned to death, quoted in elwill's post above, is as sana99 says - that whoever is honest is punished. (Actually the woman seems to be only a device in a story about Khalid, who cursed her when her blood spurted on him (!!!), and who was gently chastised for doing so.)

mahmoud's posts indicate this too - "Dont do it; if you do it, don't get caught."

So I question too with sana99 - if you're honest, you can expect to be punished - correct? Is there no such thing as private confession, atonement, and forgiveness?
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:21 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post
It seemed to me she was not at all "turned away"; she was led on to raise her child to near self-sufficiency. Then when she was no longer needed she was promptly killed.

I dont see where she "insisted to be punished by her own will!" No mention of any such thing in the section you quote. Am I misunderstanding something?!
you just missed the first three lines
Then came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) a woman from Ghamid and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed adultery, so purify me.” He (the Messenger of Allah) turned her away.
On the following day she said: “O Messenger of Allah! Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant.” He (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child).”

i really don't now how you misuderstood that , it's very clear


Quote:
So I question too with sana99 - if you're honest, you can expect to be punished - correct?
for myself , my answer is no . it will be suffecient to by honest with God
what happend in this story was very high level of repentence

Quote:
Is there no such thing as private confession, atonement, and forgiveness?
surely , there are private confession to God , and there are atonement and forgiveness .
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
you just missed the first three lines
Then came to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) a woman from Ghamid and said: “O Messenger of Allah! I have committed adultery, so purify me.” He (the Messenger of Allah) turned her away.
On the following day she said: “O Messenger of Allah! Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant.” He (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child).”

i really don't now how you misuderstood that , it's very clear
I did misread, you're right. The first time I read it I missed the point of the story and only saw the cruelties in it.

It's an example story, like the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Bible - it sets a standard against which the faithful would measure their own spiritual commitment (would you gladly kill your son; would you gladly leave a joyful life on earth to repent your sin). Correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
surely , there are private confession to God , and there are atonement and forgiveness .
I understand that it is a strict religion! The question about fear circumventing honesty is interesting.

To clarify what I was asking about honesty, confession, atonement and forgiveness: in the Qur'an, is there a "go and sin no more" purification ritual in which the person who sinned can be honest and confess, and be forgiven by a human intercessor - and stay alive?
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:31 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post
It's an example story, like the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Bible - it sets a standard against which the faithful would measure their own spiritual commitment (would you gladly kill your son; would you gladly leave a joyful life on earth to repent your sin). Correct?
exactly ( anyway we believe that it was Ismail not Isaac peace be upon them all)
but in the situation of this woman , it wasn't necessery for her to confess about her sin and get punished , it was suffecient for her to repent to her God secretly , but as i told before it was high level of repentence

Quote:
I understand that it is a strict religion! The question about fear circumventing honesty is interesting.
To clarify what I was asking about honesty, confession, atonement and forgiveness: in the Qur'an, is there a "go and sin no more" purification ritual in which the person who sinned can be honest and confess, and be forgiven by a human intercessor - and stay alive?


chapter 3
135 - And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, and ask for forgiveness for their sins (from God), and who can forgive sins except God?! and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done
136 - For such the reward is forgivenesses from their lord, and gardens with rivers flowing underneath, an eternal dwelling: how excellent a recompense for those who work (and strive)

for more usderstanding , you need to know that there are sins against God and there are sins against someone or against the society as killing or theft or rape , these kinds of sins needs forgiveness from persons whom get hurted by the crime even if the sinner were honest in his repentence to God . this is the just of God in our relegion


so if you theft someone , then confessed , you must to be punished unless if the one being theft forgave you
also , you didn't need to confess to be honest in your repentance , but the judgement of God for your crime will postponed to the judgement day , God will not ignore the ones being theft because of your repentence , if you understand what i mean


i'm expecting more question , feel free if you have any
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,481,392 times
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Young girl raped and stoned to death under Shariah:
“Following the assault, she sought protection from the authorities, who then accused her of adultery and sentenced her to death,” Unicef added. “A child was victimized twice — first by the perpetrators of the rape and then by those responsible for administering justice.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/wo...05somalia.html

None of the men she accused of rape have been arrested.

This is the sort of story we see repeated over and over
in Islamic countries.
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Old 11-16-2008, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,481,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post

It's an example story, like the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Bible - it sets a standard against which the faithful would measure their own spiritual commitment (would you gladly kill your son; would you gladly leave a joyful life on earth to repent your sin). Correct?
If we sometimes look at the Old Testament and substitute what we would consider civil human behavior standards when we look at the activities of God, we might have another opinion.

We would not think well of a spouse who asked their beloved "Would you cut off your finger for love of me? How about your hand?'

Would you undergo genital mutilation to assure me that you are mine?
Would you dump your kid to prove you love me?

How about the woman who says 'If you really loved me you would buy me that diamond?'

Stomach-turning, even to suggest such a thing.
If a man said such things to a woman, a sane one would run away as fast as she could.
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