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Old 06-16-2008, 10:33 PM
 
Location: vagabond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The preaching of the cross to them that perish is foolishness, but to we that are alive it is the power of God. That statement was made 2,000 years ago, yet it was true then, and is true today. Without Christ in your life, there is no hope for the future.
well, round two (after my broswer ate my first post).

do you even realize that this is not what the argument is about? we are not discussing the validity of Christ's message. we are not discussing whether christians should testify or not. we are not trying to debunk scripture that tells us to share our faith.

i wouldn't have spent two years in a foreign country if i didn't think that testifying was important. i wouldn't share with my friends and family now if i didn't think it important.

we're talking about the right to testify. and when in uniform, in an official capacity, you do not have the right to testify. you do not have the right to intimidate others into accepting Christ.

Christ certainly made enemies while He lived, but He knew what He was doing. He knew 100% the path that He needed to tread. you, however, and the gullible marine, and those that encouraged him, are not Christ. you have no idea what you are doing, and you have no place putting hundreds and thousands of people in danger in order to make a pitiful attempt to spread your faith. i say pitiful because you could hardly pick a less effective means to share your faith. certainly, there has been media coverage, but again, since it is only driving people to hate our faith, i have to ask, what honest good do you think any of this accomplished?

if you want to share something special with someone, go somewhere that will actually make a difference. and for crying out loud, do it legally, without managing to break the laws of two countries show me one person that has found God through this marine's decision.

so, since so far, no one is being drawn closer to God through this little demonstration, and more people are being pulled farther away from whatever chance they might have had at seeing the light, then what good has come of this? why can't it be all right to just play by the rules? if the marine promised not to do such things, how is it good and christian for him to break his promise? how is it good when he has promised to God that he will abide by lawful rules that promote peace and understanding?

it is simple: it isn't.

aaron out.
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Old 06-17-2008, 01:23 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,891,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
well, round two (after my broswer ate my first post).

do you even realize that this is not what the argument is about? we are not discussing the validity of Christ's message. we are not discussing whether christians should testify or not. we are not trying to debunk scripture that tells us to share our faith.

i wouldn't have spent two years in a foreign country if i didn't think that testifying was important. i wouldn't share with my friends and family now if i didn't think it important.

we're talking about the right to testify. and when in uniform, in an official capacity, you do not have the right to testify. you do not have the right to intimidate others into accepting Christ.

Christ certainly made enemies while He lived, but He knew what He was doing. He knew 100% the path that He needed to tread. you, however, and the gullible marine, and those that encouraged him, are not Christ. you have no idea what you are doing, and you have no place putting hundreds and thousands of people in danger in order to make a pitiful attempt to spread your faith. i say pitiful because you could hardly pick a less effective means to share your faith. certainly, there has been media coverage, but again, since it is only driving people to hate our faith, i have to ask, what honest good do you think any of this accomplished?

if you want to share something special with someone, go somewhere that will actually make a difference. and for crying out loud, do it legally, without managing to break the laws of two countries show me one person that has found God through this marine's decision.

so, since so far, no one is being drawn closer to God through this little demonstration, and more people are being pulled farther away from whatever chance they might have had at seeing the light, then what good has come of this? why can't it be all right to just play by the rules? if the marine promised not to do such things, how is it good and christian for him to break his promise? how is it good when he has promised to God that he will abide by lawful rules that promote peace and understanding?

it is simple: it isn't.

aaron out.
Jesus did not come to earth to promote peace. Christians have just a short time on this earth to make a difference for God. We may never know what the result of our actions are here on earth, yet the Bible tells us that those who share the Gospel of Christ will shine as the stars in heaven. God will never condem a man for trying to share the good news of Christ with his fellow man. The world will. The world will be more concerned with legal laws, and political correctness. The rules you would have us play by would require that the name of Jesus Christ be banned, and all out reach be silenced. If my faith was just a religion of convinence then I would agree with you. Yet may faith is far more important than that. And you have no idea how God can change a life through the actions of simple men. I have seen such things. Often God uses the simple things of this world to bring about great changes. He is a God of wonder. You just need to have more faith in Him.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:17 AM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,242,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
I see christianity as very intolerant and lacking respect of others.
We are in Iraq in an unprovoked war based on lies.
How would you feel if the US were occupied and the muslim oppressors/occupiers were preaching at you and handing you muslim coins?

The real root of intolerance in christianity is its refusal to accept that others are not interested in their religion. What's the problem with leaving the rest of the world alone?

Well, I don't think the war was unprovoked - 9/11 and probably other terrorist matters the general public know nothing about.

I don't think it's fair to say that Christianity refuses to accept others who are not interested in their religion. You have always had your own freedom in a largely 'christian' western world.
A freedom denied to those in the Islamic world.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:19 AM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,242,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
If they say they're xian, they are.
You don't get to decide that only people who act as you would like them to are xian.
You can't include and exclude on your personal beliefs.

By your fruits you will know them. Jesus would not have done this to others. Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. If the soldiers have behaved contrary then their whole life denies them being Christian.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:20 AM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,242,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Why do you keep telling people who disagree with you to move to Iran?
This is the kind of xianity that really scares me.

Iran is a very nice country - especially in the Fall. Why let that scare you?
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:48 AM
 
40,143 posts, read 24,369,621 times
Reputation: 12635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Jesus did not come to earth to promote peace. Christians have just a short time on this earth to make a difference for God. We may never know what the result of our actions are here on earth, yet the Bible tells us that those who share the Gospel of Christ will shine as the stars in heaven. God will never condem a man for trying to share the good news of Christ with his fellow man. The world will. The world will be more concerned with legal laws, and political correctness. The rules you would have us play by would require that the name of Jesus Christ be banned, and all out reach be silenced. If my faith was just a religion of convinence then I would agree with you. Yet may faith is far more important than that. And you have no idea how God can change a life through the actions of simple men. I have seen such things. Often God uses the simple things of this world to bring about great changes. He is a God of wonder. You just need to have more faith in Him.
I think it's wonderful that you are so committed to your faith. I do think that Jesus and his teachings were about peace, though, and about respecting and loving your fellow human beings. I don't see that converting people at gunpoint has much point. You can force people to kneel, you can force them to pray aloud to your God, but what they are saying inside, who they pray to in their hearts, you cannot control with a gun or any other threat. In fact, you demean yourself by trying to coerce people to adopt your faith, and you demean the very faith you practice. The military's policies against soldiers trying to convert Muslims to Christianity isn't just about respecting the faith of Muslims, it presumes that Christians are most persuasive when they don't use positions of authority to push their faith on others, and instead show respect and consideration to the people they have authority over.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:50 AM
 
244 posts, read 365,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The laws of America come second to the Laws of God, and why do you think so many of the Biblical men of the Bible were put to death?
I will tell you. They were put to death because they did not follow the laws of the land. They did not bow down to govenments, or their enemies, nor were they silent. The religious leaders told Jesus that they should keep quiet, and Jesus told them if His people kept silent the very rocks would cry out. Jesus tells us to go into all the world and preach the Gospel, and that is what Christians will continually do. I have a right to speak of my God any time I feel like it, and I will do so until my heart stops beating. Jesus spoke the truth, and John the Baptist spoke the truth, and they killed both of them because of that truth. Do you believe the mans law is greater than Gods commands? Jesus did not believe that, and that is why He did not submit to the leading religious authorities. It is not the American government that is in charge, it is Jesus Christ. Anytime you put human government ahead of the authority of God, your going to have a problem.

My point has been that Christ commanded you to follow the temporal authority in cases where doing so does not directly conflict with other commandments. Following the Constitutional and legal directive to avoid proselytizing in uniform doesn’t conflict with any part of God’s law. Christ may have said to go out and preach the Gospel, but unless you want to claim that every Christian must preach every second of every day, it should be obvious that a Christian can avoid preaching while in uniform. There is therefore no conflict, and Christ’s directive to follow temporal authority applies.

All of your comments regarding whether God’s law or temporal law should control are off point. In this case a Christian can follow both. And since she can follow both, she must, according to both temporal law and Christ’s word.

Furthermore, suppose you manage to find a Biblical commandment according to which a soldier is required to proselytize in uniform. All that would do is let you claim the soldiers had a Biblical reason for doing what they did. It doesn’t get them off the hook for breaking the temporal law. So your entire argument is off point.

Finally, let me just add that the commandment to preach the Gospel isn’t a commandment to be pig-headed about it. If you can’t listen to and respect the people you’re talking to, they’re not going to listen to or respect you. Whoever was passing out those coins has probably done much more to turn people away from Christianity than to convert them to it. The same goes for your attempts at defending their actions. As an atheist I appreciate it when people cast Christianity, or any other religion, in such poor light. Keep up the good work.
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:31 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,938,508 times
Reputation: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Jesus did not come to earth to promote peace. Christians have just a short time on this earth to make a difference for God. We may never know what the result of our actions are here on earth, yet the Bible tells us that those who share the Gospel of Christ will shine as the stars in heaven. God will never condem a man for trying to share the good news of Christ with his fellow man. The world will. The world will be more concerned with legal laws, and political correctness. The rules you would have us play by would require that the name of Jesus Christ be banned, and all out reach be silenced. If my faith was just a religion of convinence then I would agree with you. Yet may faith is far more important than that. And you have no idea how God can change a life through the actions of simple men. I have seen such things. Often God uses the simple things of this world to bring about great changes. He is a God of wonder. You just need to have more faith in Him.
you are operating under a plethora of assumptions and delusions.

#1-God does not condemn for sharing. however, He will condemn sharing for the wrong reasons. if i do it to further my own station, or to promote my own agenda, or to control others, then yes, i am going to suffer for it. similarly, if i do it in a way that betrays the intelligence that God gave me, then i am going to suffer for it. i do not neccesarily think that this means condemnation to hell, but certainly decreased productivity, experience, wisdom, and therefore faith, in this life. not to mention the feelings of guilt that *should* accompany getting people killed because you were too ignorant to choose a better time and place.

#2-the rules that 'i would have you play by' are the rules that this marine agreed to obey, that he in fact gave his word as a supposedly honest man that he would obey. do you think that God will let honor and honesty slide? the ends justify the means now? if i have to get rid of someone that is impeding my testimony, would i be justified in killing?

also, where in this discussion did you pick up the idea that our laws are out to silence your voice? i am not sure if you remember the whole part in the ideals of this country that have to do with freedom of speech and freedom of religion. your voice, and your ability to testify will always be upheld, so long as we maintain this aristocr--excuse me, i meant democracy.

what this means is that you need to differentiate between the freedom to testify, and the discretion to testify. it is the same as any other issue about what you can and can't say. if i am producing a movie, and swear that i won't leak any of it's secrets to the media, but i do anyway, i am responsible, and they have every right to sue my pants off if they find out it was me that did it. freedom of speech does not matter.

you can't pick one instance in which it is not legal to push beliefs on someone, and then logically, rationally expect us to believe that your freedom of speech and religion has been removed.

#3-how much of that statement is meant to suppose that my faith is mere convenience? you can get self-righteous if you want, but that does not change the fact that people can have different beliefs than you (remember, freedom of religion we just discussed in the above paragraphs?). my faith is fundamental to who i am. every decision i have ever made in my life has been steered not only by who i want me to be, but by who i think God wants me to be. my faith is very important to me, and it is reinforced when i find ways to obey God's laws without breaking others of His laws. if i need to be dishonorable, manipulative, and dishonest in order to spread His word, i am going abput it in the wrong way.

#4-again, yes, i have quite a good idea of how God can change the lives of others through our actions. you can make all sorts of assumptions about me if you want, but that still does not make them true. just because i do not agree with you does not mean that i do not understand the relationship between God and man.

so again, show me how we have used this incidence for the greater good of mankind. show me the faith that has been built in the iraqi people as they are being coerced and forced to accept our ways. show me how many of them, and how many of us back here watching, are being converted by this marine's actions.

show me that, and i will show you hundreds of examples of those who have been driven farther away from Christ by this sad situation. this is the third time i have demanded any such faith-promoting stories from you; maybe the third time is a charm.

#5-for the third time in your short paragraph, you assume that just because i don't think like you, i obviously don't think as well as you. i have quite a bit of faith in God. i always need more, and so in that respect, your invitation is spot-on. however, as we mentioned earlier, intent counts for quite a bit, and when you assume that i do not have as much faith as you, simply because i don't agree with you, your argument becomes one-sided, weak, and tunnel-visioned.

i am well aware that God can help us even in the midst of chaos and carnage. but is that really the environment that you want to bring about? are you content with the idea that encouraging violence is a good thing, simply because we already know that it is here to stay?

this issue is about a marine that broke a promise (something that most christians frown upon, and God certainly does not condone), and used his position and authority to manipulate others into accepting Christ's message. does that sound benevolent to you? i do not think that he had malicious intent when he was handing out the coins. i do, however, think that he could have shown much better judgment, and that coercion (which as another act condemned by God), dishonesty, and general stupidity are certainly traits that are not going to lead anyone closer to God.

you still have yet to explain how coercion and manipulation are ok in order to 'win converts'. i suppose that this might fall under the idea that the ends justify the means as well.

lastly, i would like to explain something, and see if you understand and agree. i cannot convert anyone. i can only bring the message. the Spirit has to do the rest. if i bring the message in a way that truly shows the God that i reverence, then the Spirit will be there. but i still cannot convert anyone, and indeed, if someone is 'converted' by me, without the true conversion of the Spirit, then they are missing the point, and their conversion is confused, lip service only.

correct?

if you agree with this (i understand that there are a bazillion interpretations of the bible out there, but maybe this is one that we can agree on), then i am confused as to how you believe actions that drive away the Spirit are supposed somehow bring people closer to it.

if the fruit of the Spirit (galations 5) is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, then how are dishonesty, intimidation, and coercion supposed to bring Christ's message to the world?

aaron out.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,776,624 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
Well, I don't think the war was unprovoked - 9/11 and probably other terrorist matters the general public know nothing about.

I don't think it's fair to say that Christianity refuses to accept others who are not interested in their religion. You have always had your own freedom in a largely 'christian' western world.
A freedom denied to those in the Islamic world.
The war in Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11, but was based of lies about WMDs...
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Old 06-17-2008, 04:06 PM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,242,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
The war in Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11, but was based of lies about WMDs...

Oh ok........

Truth is, if we didn't fight them over THERE then they would bring their fight over HERE. They just wanted to fight. Saddam Hussein was just an excuse (a good one though), to get in there and give these terrorists what they were looking for. The Muslims want to be Martyrs and go to Paradise, so a good war gives them plenty of opporutunity to get there fast. Islam is not a religion of peace. Peace if you do what they say, when they say it. Islam is a religion of oppression.
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