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Old 06-17-2008, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,838,436 times
Reputation: 11318

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
Well, I don't think the war was unprovoked - 9/11 and probably other terrorist matters the general public know nothing about.

I don't think it's fair to say that Christianity refuses to accept others who are not interested in their religion. You have always had your own freedom in a largely 'christian' western world.
A freedom denied to those in the Islamic world.
Then you know absolutely nothing about the 11 September strikes.
NOT ONE PERSON FROM IRAQ was involved. Saudi, absolutely. The Saudis were allowed to leave the country on 12/13 September 2001. No one else was allowed to fly.
It is none of yours or my business what a sovereign nation chooses to do or how they govern themselves.
Better look at US policies and its own citizenry before you start looking outside.
You keep trying to convert people who aren’t xian. You are xian.
Why can’t xians leave others alone to find and live their own lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
Oh ok........

Truth is, if we didn't fight them over THERE then they would bring their fight over HERE. They just wanted to fight. Saddam Hussein was just an excuse (a good one though), to get in there and give these terrorists what they were looking for. The Muslims want to be Martyrs and go to Paradise, so a good war gives them plenty of opporutunity to get there fast. Islam is not a religion of peace. Peace if you do what they say, when they say it. Islam is a religion of oppression.
You are not at all informed about the Iraq war.
Iraq was a secular nation, now it is going to be run by religious zealots as a direct result of US intervention.
Iraq had no weapons, so how were they going to attack the US?
You might want to get your facts straight. After all this time, 7 years, I assume that you're not interested in factual data. Much of that data is currently in the news.

Since you spew garbage that’s been debunked for YEARS, nothing you say holds an ounce of integrity for me.

People who spout untruths and outright lies, as you are doing here, show their worldly ignorance. Unfortunately, a great number of those people are xian. Your type really does scare me. I think it will be people who believe as you do who end the world in a violent way.

I’ll not engage you any more.
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:10 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,891,971 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I think it's wonderful that you are so committed to your faith. I do think that Jesus and his teachings were about peace, though, and about respecting and loving your fellow human beings. I don't see that converting people at gunpoint has much point. You can force people to kneel, you can force them to pray aloud to your God, but what they are saying inside, who they pray to in their hearts, you cannot control with a gun or any other threat. In fact, you demean yourself by trying to coerce people to adopt your faith, and you demean the very faith you practice. The military's policies against soldiers trying to convert Muslims to Christianity isn't just about respecting the faith of Muslims, it presumes that Christians are most persuasive when they don't use positions of authority to push their faith on others, and instead show respect and consideration to the people they have authority over.
Well we all have beliefs about Jesus, yet I try not to formulate my beliefs based on my personal opinion. I would rather go to the source.

In Matthew chapter 10 starting at verse 34 Jesus tells us. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more then me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

There is little room here for respecting ones fellow human and trying to premote peace, just the oppsite. Jesus tells us, if you love your fellow human more then God, you are not worthy of God.

And a soldier passing out a coin, is not forcing anyone to accept or pray aloud to Jesus.
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Old 06-17-2008, 11:45 PM
 
84 posts, read 200,318 times
Reputation: 39
Iraq had WMD's we found them and removed them. I have seen them I know about them I know they were Nuc's I know they were from Russia. I know you did not hear about them. I know you know nothing about this war. Never had anything to do with 9-11 the left are the ones that said it was . We took them out because it was what was needed. The people in Iraq are happy we did and most love Americans If you get any of your news for a network news channel your a fool. Get your news from Iraq. Get it from the other Arab countries. Try google translator. You people know nothing. It is quite funny to see what people on the outside of smart think. Sheep .
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Old 06-18-2008, 01:14 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,891,971 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl View Post
you are operating under a plethora of assumptions and delusions.

#1-God does not condemn for sharing. however, He will condemn sharing for the wrong reasons. if i do it to further my own station, or to promote my own agenda, or to control others, then yes, i am going to suffer for it. similarly, if i do it in a way that betrays the intelligence that God gave me, then i am going to suffer for it. i do not neccesarily think that this means condemnation to hell, but certainly decreased productivity, experience, wisdom, and therefore faith, in this life. not to mention the feelings of guilt that *should* accompany getting people killed because you were too ignorant to choose a better time and place.

#2-the rules that 'i would have you play by' are the rules that this marine agreed to obey, that he in fact gave his word as a supposedly honest man that he would obey. do you think that God will let honor and honesty slide? the ends justify the means now? if i have to get rid of someone that is impeding my testimony, would i be justified in killing?

also, where in this discussion did you pick up the idea that our laws are out to silence your voice? i am not sure if you remember the whole part in the ideals of this country that have to do with freedom of speech and freedom of religion. your voice, and your ability to testify will always be upheld, so long as we maintain this aristocr--excuse me, i meant democracy.

what this means is that you need to differentiate between the freedom to testify, and the discretion to testify. it is the same as any other issue about what you can and can't say. if i am producing a movie, and swear that i won't leak any of it's secrets to the media, but i do anyway, i am responsible, and they have every right to sue my pants off if they find out it was me that did it. freedom of speech does not matter.

you can't pick one instance in which it is not legal to push beliefs on someone, and then logically, rationally expect us to believe that your freedom of speech and religion has been removed.

#3-how much of that statement is meant to suppose that my faith is mere convenience? you can get self-righteous if you want, but that does not change the fact that people can have different beliefs than you (remember, freedom of religion we just discussed in the above paragraphs?). my faith is fundamental to who i am. every decision i have ever made in my life has been steered not only by who i want me to be, but by who i think God wants me to be. my faith is very important to me, and it is reinforced when i find ways to obey God's laws without breaking others of His laws. if i need to be dishonorable, manipulative, and dishonest in order to spread His word, i am going abput it in the wrong way.

#4-again, yes, i have quite a good idea of how God can change the lives of others through our actions. you can make all sorts of assumptions about me if you want, but that still does not make them true. just because i do not agree with you does not mean that i do not understand the relationship between God and man.

so again, show me how we have used this incidence for the greater good of mankind. show me the faith that has been built in the iraqi people as they are being coerced and forced to accept our ways. show me how many of them, and how many of us back here watching, are being converted by this marine's actions.

show me that, and i will show you hundreds of examples of those who have been driven farther away from Christ by this sad situation. this is the third time i have demanded any such faith-promoting stories from you; maybe the third time is a charm.

#5-for the third time in your short paragraph, you assume that just because i don't think like you, i obviously don't think as well as you. i have quite a bit of faith in God. i always need more, and so in that respect, your invitation is spot-on. however, as we mentioned earlier, intent counts for quite a bit, and when you assume that i do not have as much faith as you, simply because i don't agree with you, your argument becomes one-sided, weak, and tunnel-visioned.

i am well aware that God can help us even in the midst of chaos and carnage. but is that really the environment that you want to bring about? are you content with the idea that encouraging violence is a good thing, simply because we already know that it is here to stay?

this issue is about a marine that broke a promise (something that most christians frown upon, and God certainly does not condone), and used his position and authority to manipulate others into accepting Christ's message. does that sound benevolent to you? i do not think that he had malicious intent when he was handing out the coins. i do, however, think that he could have shown much better judgment, and that coercion (which as another act condemned by God), dishonesty, and general stupidity are certainly traits that are not going to lead anyone closer to God.

you still have yet to explain how coercion and manipulation are ok in order to 'win converts'. i suppose that this might fall under the idea that the ends justify the means as well.

lastly, i would like to explain something, and see if you understand and agree. i cannot convert anyone. i can only bring the message. the Spirit has to do the rest. if i bring the message in a way that truly shows the God that i reverence, then the Spirit will be there. but i still cannot convert anyone, and indeed, if someone is 'converted' by me, without the true conversion of the Spirit, then they are missing the point, and their conversion is confused, lip service only.

correct?

if you agree with this (i understand that there are a bazillion interpretations of the bible out there, but maybe this is one that we can agree on), then i am confused as to how you believe actions that drive away the Spirit are supposed somehow bring people closer to it.

if the fruit of the Spirit (galations 5) is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance, then how are dishonesty, intimidation, and coercion supposed to bring Christ's message to the world?

aaron out.
There are only so many hours in a day, and Christians only have a short time to reach out to the people they encounter. Sometimes they are brought together because of events that are beyond their control. Yet for the Christian those events can be the time to change a life. Eternity is a long time. And if Christians only look for the ideal time, and wait for what you would say is the best time to speak to someone about their faith, it will be to late for so many. If you don't care about how many die and go to Hell for all eternity, then sure, lets just wait for the right time. If you were going down a street and saw a man trapped in a burning car, would you not rush to his aid, trying to breaking through his window to pull him out to safety?
Or would you first do a fact finding study and consider the number of ways you could approach such a person? Or maybe you could first do a time study to consider how long it would actually take to save him from his burning car. Its obvious to me, that you don't understand that if you miss salvation in this life it is eternal death for all eternity. I believe the solider in Iraq is Christian who wanted to spread the Gospel. I think those of us who are Christian need to support his efforts. The Bible tells us that most of the world is headed for Hell. If you understood what is waiting for most people beyond this life, I feel you would not be so cavalier about the proper approach in reaching people with the Gospel today.
When Jesus stated the fields are white unto harvest, but where are the reapers? It's obvious he was not speaking of the marine here. God does not command that we win anyone to Him, He only commands that we reach out to those around us with His Gospel. You say we need to wait for the right time. Jesus said today is the day of salvation, now is the appointed time.
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Old 06-18-2008, 01:25 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,884 posts, read 31,780,534 times
Reputation: 12629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabee View Post
Iraq had WMD's we found them and removed them. I have seen them I know about them I know they were Nuc's I know they were from Russia. I know you did not hear about them. I know you know nothing about this war. Never had anything to do with 9-11 the left are the ones that said it was . We took them out because it was what was needed. The people in Iraq are happy we did and most love Americans If you get any of your news for a network news channel your a fool. Get your news from Iraq. Get it from the other Arab countries. Try google translator. You people know nothing. It is quite funny to see what people on the outside of smart think. Sheep .
Really! You have seen nukes removed from Iraq
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,838,436 times
Reputation: 11318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabee View Post
Iraq had WMD's we found them and removed them. I have seen them I know about them I know they were Nuc's I know they were from Russia. I know you did not hear about them. I know you know nothing about this war. Never had anything to do with 9-11 the left are the ones that said it was . We took them out because it was what was needed. The people in Iraq are happy we did and most love Americans If you get any of your news for a network news channel your a fool. Get your news from Iraq. Get it from the other Arab countries. Try google translator. You people know nothing. It is quite funny to see what people on the outside of smart think. Sheep .
I'm sorry that people like you are in the military.
Your facts are not quite right.
Send some links my way.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:43 AM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,242,521 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Then you know absolutely nothing about the 11 September strikes.
NOT ONE PERSON FROM IRAQ was involved. Saudi, absolutely. The Saudis were allowed to leave the country on 12/13 September 2001. No one else was allowed to fly.
It is none of yours or my business what a sovereign nation chooses to do or how they govern themselves.
Better look at US policies and its own citizenry before you start looking outside.
You keep trying to convert people who arenít xian. You are xian.
Why canít xians leave others alone to find and live their own lives.



You are not at all informed about the Iraq war.
Iraq was a secular nation, now it is going to be run by religious zealots as a direct result of US intervention.
Iraq had no weapons, so how were they going to attack the US?
You might want to get your facts straight. After all this time, 7 years, I assume that you're not interested in factual data. Much of that data is currently in the news.

Since you spew garbage thatís been debunked for YEARS, nothing you say holds an ounce of integrity for me.

People who spout untruths and outright lies, as you are doing here, show their worldly ignorance. Unfortunately, a great number of those people are xian. Your type really does scare me. I think it will be people who believe as you do who end the world in a violent way.

Iíll not engage you any more.


Lots of love to you too......
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Old 06-19-2008, 05:37 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,938,952 times
Reputation: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
I think it's wonderful that you are so committed to your faith. I do think that Jesus and his teachings were about peace, though, and about respecting and loving your fellow human beings. I don't see that converting people at gunpoint has much point. You can force people to kneel, you can force them to pray aloud to your God, but what they are saying inside, who they pray to in their hearts, you cannot control with a gun or any other threat. In fact, you demean yourself by trying to coerce people to adopt your faith, and you demean the very faith you practice. The military's policies against soldiers trying to convert Muslims to Christianity isn't just about respecting the faith of Muslims, it presumes that Christians are most persuasive when they don't use positions of authority to push their faith on others, and instead show respect and consideration to the people they have authority over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well we all have beliefs about Jesus, yet I try not to formulate my beliefs based on my personal opinion. I would rather go to the source.

In Matthew chapter 10 starting at verse 34 Jesus tells us. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more then me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

There is little room here for respecting ones fellow human and trying to premote peace, just the oppsite. Jesus tells us, if you love your fellow human more then God, you are not worthy of God.

And a soldier passing out a coin, is not forcing anyone to accept or pray aloud to Jesus.
which part of dc's message are you disagreeing with? the part about time? or the part about 'converting' people at gunpoint, and domineering them into some sort of agreement?

incidentally, you really don't consider it to be manipulative for an occupying force to be promoting its religion at gunpoint? you really think that such an act is biblically sound?
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Old 06-19-2008, 05:54 PM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,938,952 times
Reputation: 1307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
There are only so many hours in a day, and Christians only have a short time to reach out to the people they encounter. Sometimes they are brought together because of events that are beyond their control. Yet for the Christian those events can be the time to change a life. Eternity is a long time. And if Christians only look for the ideal time, and wait for what you would say is the best time to speak to someone about their faith, it will be to late for so many. If you don't care about how many die and go to Hell for all eternity, then sure, lets just wait for the right time. If you were going down a street and saw a man trapped in a burning car, would you not rush to his aid, trying to breaking through his window to pull him out to safety?
Or would you first do a fact finding study and consider the number of ways you could approach such a person? Or maybe you could first do a time study to consider how long it would actually take to save him from his burning car. Its obvious to me, that you don't understand that if you miss salvation in this life it is eternal death for all eternity. I believe the solider in Iraq is Christian who wanted to spread the Gospel. I think those of us who are Christian need to support his efforts. The Bible tells us that most of the world is headed for Hell. If you understood what is waiting for most people beyond this life, I feel you would not be so cavalier about the proper approach in reaching people with the Gospel today.
When Jesus stated the fields are white unto harvest, but where are the reapers? It's obvious he was not speaking of the marine here. God does not command that we win anyone to Him, He only commands that we reach out to those around us with His Gospel. You say we need to wait for the right time. Jesus said today is the day of salvation, now is the appointed time.
are you purposely evading my questions, or do you just believe them not worth your time to answer?

one more for you? if every second of now is the time and place to preach, why are you on the internet arguing about this marine? if every moment is when you should be preaching, do you really quote scriptures to your spouse while making love?

am i way off base, or can you consent that there are times when it is not even appropriate to preach? would it be appropriate in the middle of a board meeting? would it be appropriate to randomly start up a witnessing conversation with the guy at the urinal next to you in the mens room?

if all of these are appropriate, have you done them all? if not, why not? if not, are you planning on repenting, and beginning?

there are bad things that we can do in life, there are good things we can do, and then there are the best things that we can do in life. in every case, time, place, and situation are relevant to an act to determine where it falls on that continuum. if i would rather stay home and read scriptures than go to the hospital with my wife when she goes into labor, a good thing (scriptures), has turned into a bad thing (putting them before my wife's very immediate needs). testifying is good. testifying in a way that requires disobeying lawful orders, breaking your own word, and coercing others is a bad thing (which is one of the issues i asked you about that you still have not answered).

i am sure that there is more, but this will do for now, assuming that if i keep it short, you might actually get around to answering it.

aaron out.
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Old 06-19-2008, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Camberville
12,039 posts, read 16,780,137 times
Reputation: 19795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabee View Post
Iraq had WMD's we found them and removed them. I have seen them I know about them I know they were Nuc's I know they were from Russia. I know you did not hear about them. I know you know nothing about this war. Never had anything to do with 9-11 the left are the ones that said it was . We took them out because it was what was needed. The people in Iraq are happy we did and most love Americans If you get any of your news for a network news channel your a fool. Get your news from Iraq. Get it from the other Arab countries. Try google translator. You people know nothing. It is quite funny to see what people on the outside of smart think. Sheep .
That's funny. My best friend is in West Point in his final year studying to be an Arabic translator and is fluent. He reads Middle Eastern newspapers regularly and has for years. What papers are YOU reading?

And what Iraqis are YOU talking to? I get my news from troops on the ground and the ones on several tours say that Iraqis have not been happy with us in a long, long, long time.
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