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Old 08-02-2008, 09:19 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by Bideshi
Quote:
Remarkably brave women in the US and Britain fought a determined uphill battle against societal traditions for those rights. It was not separation of church and state that did it!
Isn't it ironic that the American women who fought for more free rights only did so when they experienced that some (heathen) Native American women already had equal rights long before the Christians set foot in America*?
Quote:
Their success inspired women in other European nations to demand their rights too.
Wasn't it the Christian Bible who kept the women oppressed?


Quote:
*from pp. 29 - 31 "Haudenosaunee and EuroAmerican Women in 1848
Matilda Joslyn Gage and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, the major theoreticians of the woman's rights movement, claimed that the society in which they lived was based on the oppression of women.
Haudenosaunee society, on the other hand, was organized to maintain a balance of equality between women and men. Shown here are the contrasting differences between the two worlds of women who lived side-by-side in this region of upstate New York in 1848.

Haudenosaunee
Social
Children are members of the mother's clan.
Violence against women not part of culture, and dealt with seriously when occurs.
Clothing fosters health, freedom of movement and independence.
Women's responsibilities have a spiritual basis.
Economic
Work satisfying, done communally
Responsible for agriculture as well as home life
Work done under the direction of the women, working together.
Each woman controls her own personal property.
Spiritual
"Sky Woman" the spiritual being, catalyst for the world we see.
Mother Earth and women spiritually interrelated.
Women have responsibilities in ceremony.
Responsibilities in balance with those of men.
Political
Women choose their chief.
Women hold key political offices (e.g., clan mothers)
Confederacy laws ensures woman's political authority.
Decision making by consensus, everyone has a voice.

Euro American
Social
Children are the sole property of fathers.
Husbands have legal right and religious responsibility to physically discipline wives.
Clothing is restrictive, unhealthy and dangerous.
Woman's subordination has a religious foundation.
Economic
Work drudgery, isolated
Responsible for home, but subordinate to husband.
Work done under the authority of the husband.
No rights to her own property, body, or children.
Spiritual
No female in the godhead.
Spirituality not connected to the earth.
Women forbidden to speak in churches.
Responsibilities subordinate to men's authority.
Political
Illegal for women to vote.
Women excluded from political office
Common law defines married as "dead in the law."
Decision making by men, majority rules

Source: Sisters in Spirit: Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Influence on Early American Feminists by Sally Roesch Wagner (http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/wagner4.html - broken link)

 
Old 12-15-2010, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,346 posts, read 83,000,765 times
Reputation: 17515
Quote:
Originally Posted by the fact that View Post
Islam gave women rights and privileges at a time when only barbaric manners and values dominated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-BuqkFHe6U
 
Old 12-15-2010, 09:32 AM
 
39,066 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesaje View Post
True. Perhaps it is better said that secular governments present an environment more amenable to women having equal rights (as well as other groups).
I'm inclined to think so. Since Thom R is so fond of using the horrors of the Stalinist regime as an argument against secularism, I might point out that from Lenin through to the end (where the west finally caught up) women's equality in all spheres of the communist empire (other than the supreme bastion of Dogma, the presidency and his gang, where male supremacy was still de facto) was a constant reproach to the discrimination against women in the west.

Religious tradition has overtly or tacitly been an underpinning of this discrimination and liberation has been achieved in spite of it, not because of it.

The retrospective Bible quotemining to try to claim hard - won erosion of discrimination in the face of religious resistance as credit for religion is simply cynical hypocrisy.

As for Islam, one can point to some positives. The position of women in that society can be surprisingly liberated. It can also be shockingly oppressed. Clearly the oppression needs to be ended. So just try and see where the resistance comes from. How long will it be before divine authority is claimed for continuing these traditions of misuse and abuse.

I say again to any muslim woman who claims that she is wonderfully happy within the social fabric of Islam - just imagine (1) what would happen if you decided to try behaving in a way not authorised by the Quran.

(1) it was pointed out to me - DON'T try this in actuality.
 
Old 12-15-2010, 09:13 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,966,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I'm inclined to think so. Since Thom R is so fond of using the horrors of the Stalinist regime as an argument against secularism, I might point out that from Lenin through to the end (where the west finally caught up) women's equality in all spheres of the communist empire (other than the supreme bastion of Dogma, the presidency and his gang, where male supremacy was still de facto) was a constant reproach to the discrimination against women in the west.
Mao also advanced women's rights in many ways. Doesn't change that Lenin's regime, yes Lenin not Stalin, was full of violence and started the gulags or that Mao's "Cultural Revolution" killed millions. Maybe the people they killed were mostly reactionary and illogical, but killing is killing. You do remind me that I really should focus more on Lenin's abuses, if I'm going to use Communist examples, as he was more uncompromising on religion than Stalin. Although in the Communist world the best example is Enver Hoxha of Albania, who made the atheism of his state a prime feature.

Still I think I'm usually clear that Communism isn't representative of atheism in general, just that it is in fact atheistic. It's not a religion, exempting maybe in North Korea. It's an economic and social ideology which embraces atheism. Radical Islam is in some respects an economic and social ideology as well, although it embraces a specific religion. I do not mean either to represent Islam or secular society.

I think mostly I make it clear the French Revolution or the anti-clerical regime of Plutarco Calles is more an example of the abuses of a secular regime.

As for women in Islam it varies depending on the school of thought or the like. Tuareg and Minangkabau Muslims traditionally gave women a great deal of rights. Alevi, Bekhtashi, and a few Balkan groups are fairly equitable. Gender inequality in Malaysia is listed as lower than in the US. (I'm skeptical of their UAE figure) While Senegalese women look to be better represented in Parliament than British women. Several Muslim nations have elected female leaders, but the US never has and Australia only did quite recently. New York City has never even had a woman mayor.

http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/89106.html
http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/indicators/83506.html

Still whatever Islam may allow in principle generally, with exceptions mentions, Muslim nations tend to be pretty sexist. Yemen and Saudi being the most extreme I think. Even Senegal, which I mentioned above in the "good column", has problems with female circumcision.

Last edited by Thomas R.; 12-15-2010 at 09:28 PM..
 
Old 12-15-2010, 09:50 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,765,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Freaking cowardly bullies...That is what I think of anyone who mistreats women, and Muslim men are at the top of my list.
 
Old 12-16-2010, 05:40 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,425,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
I respect your opinion on this divisive issue. Please capitalize Bible when referring to God's Word.


Sort of a small point to be correcting someone on.
 
Old 12-16-2010, 06:11 AM
 
39,066 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Mao also advanced women's rights in many ways. Doesn't change that Lenin's regime, yes Lenin not Stalin, was full of violence and started the gulags or that Mao's "Cultural Revolution" killed millions. Maybe the people they killed were mostly reactionary and illogical, but killing is killing. You do remind me that I really should focus more on Lenin's abuses, if I'm going to use Communist examples, as he was more uncompromising on religion than Stalin. Although in the Communist world the best example is Enver Hoxha of Albania, who made the atheism of his state a prime feature.

Still I think I'm usually clear that Communism isn't representative of atheism in general, just that it is in fact atheistic. It's not a religion, exempting maybe in North Korea. It's an economic and social ideology which embraces atheism. Radical Islam is in some respects an economic and social ideology as well, although it embraces a specific religion. I do not mean either to represent Islam or secular society.

I think mostly I make it clear the French Revolution or the anti-clerical regime of Plutarco Calles is more an example of the abuses of a secular regime.

As for women in Islam it varies depending on the school of thought or the like. Tuareg and Minangkabau Muslims traditionally gave women a great deal of rights. Alevi, Bekhtashi, and a few Balkan groups are fairly equitable. Gender inequality in Malaysia is listed as lower than in the US. (I'm skeptical of their UAE figure) While Senegalese women look to be better represented in Parliament than British women. Several Muslim nations have elected female leaders, but the US never has and Australia only did quite recently. New York City has never even had a woman mayor.

International Human Development Indicators - UNDP
International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

Still whatever Islam may allow in principle generally, with exceptions mentions, Muslim nations tend to be pretty sexist. Yemen and Saudi being the most extreme I think. Even Senegal, which I mentioned above in the "good column", has problems with female circumcision.
As you know, I rate you pretty highly as a correspondent and you rarely disappoint me. Here you take the point, which I suppose is the central one, that every society can have some things they can perhaps be rather pleased with (eg, volkswagens and autobahns and public rallies which are the basis of today's Olympic razzamatazz ) and islam has, in the past and also today, some things which one could do worse than imitate. I don't deny (why should I? I do not approve of Communism) that the communist regimes, which can claim a good record in female equality and social care has also a lot which should never happen again. Spain has a dreadful record of oppression, The Uk still owes reparations for the Opium wars and I hardly need to tell the US that its policy towards the Sioux and Mimbreno was pretty much what we'd call ethnic cleansing today.

The great atrocity count is futile. Everyone has lessons to learn including atheists. The example of the Marxist regimes and also the French revolution which was really pretty atheistic as base, is one that can't be denied but it doesn't have to be repeated. This thread isn't about atheism but I have to say that what the Directory and the marxist parties did is not an inevitable result of atheism but the result of dogma and lust for power.

Islam has a good deal too much of that and far too much social pressure to conform based on false dogma and an alarming fundamentalism which came out of the camelhair tents of Arabia.

To improve that is going to take as long as it took for european women to get out of the wimples and the kitchen and into cocktail dresses and the boardroom and maybe it won't take so long for Islam. Communist women have now ditched the dogma of dowdiness even if the slab -faced men in the presidential palaces still cling to power.

The arguments our muslim pals here have put forward (where there is any argument other than cut and paste of Holy Text) does not add up to much more than a demand for uncritical respect and appeal to improved order through draconian punishment.

It has a sort of logic as the order of harsh totalitarianism has a visceral appeal ('It was a lot better with the Stazi - people didn't dare to break the law then' sighs the Old GDR veteran, regretfully).

But I don't like it, because I believe in humanity and the potential of reason and a desire for a good life for it to be possible for everyone to co- exist tolerantly without the need for threats and coercion, either temporal or mythical.

Oh, by the way. The only muslim female leader I recall is Benazier Bhutto. You will recall what happened to to her in the end. Then again, the same happened to Indira Ghandi and a couple of US presidents, I recall. The totting up of atrocities is, as I say, beside the point as is totting up the number of Hijab wearing women running banks. As you say, one has some doubts about some of the reported figures.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 12-16-2010 at 06:22 AM..
 
Old 12-16-2010, 06:25 AM
 
39,066 posts, read 10,842,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Sort of a small point to be correcting someone on.
But a telling one. It is symptomatic of forcing 'respect' (TM) on the godless by telling them to capitalize 'God', the Bible, Jesus and to add 'pubh' or whatever after Mohammed. It's all part of manipulating the opposition to score points, whether they realise it or not.
 
Old 12-16-2010, 07:45 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,966,872 times
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Khaleda Zia led Bangladesh or maybe still does. (Looking it up they are now led by a different woman, one named Sheikh Hasina) Megawati Sukarnoputri, and I admit I just like saying Megawati Sukarnoputri, led Indonesia for a time. I'd forgotten this, but looking up female leaders there was also Tansu Cillier of Turkey. Turkey, Indonesia, and Bangladesh are fairly large nations.

I don't want to give the impression I'm overly praising Islam though. For a variety of reasons Islam largely "shut the door" on interpretation sometime around the thirteenth or fourteenth century. So Islam's view of women, on average, is often like a really progressive person of the fourteenth century. They get inheritance, they can initiate divorce, and they can get an education including a good education. But as I recall they're not normally equal as witnesses, etc. They can not get another husband, but the man may get another wife. The exceptions generally occur in societies that have been influenced by non-Islamic or pre-Islamic culture. I'm sometimes sympathetic to the idea that "everything good in Islam can be found in Pre-Islamic religions or philosophies, everything bad in Islam is from Islam." Although that's probably more than a little unfair. Pre-Muslim Arabs often treated women worse than they do now and some of their unique beliefs seem to have encouraged them toward an interest to math and astronomy. (Knowing where Mecca is, for example)

Still whatever Islam is I think there is a good deal of variance as the Islamic world so it is not some monolithic blob. Which seems to be hard for many, even within Islam, to accept. Much, maybe most in some years, of the violence Muslims do is directed at Muslims who are deemed to have gone too far in accepting local or "Non-Islamic" customs. And much anti-Muslim rhetoric is based in them all having the mindset of uneducated people in Pakistan or Jordan. Or that they're some kind of Fifth-Column ready to take over.
 
Old 12-16-2010, 08:06 AM
 
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Right. Indonesia has been, until recently at least somewhat, more in the sub hindu mentality of the Asean nations, though I found I was constantly being lectured on Islam when I was there in the 80's and I noticed a distinct change in temperament, society and facial expression (sullen distrust after friendly smiles) when moving over the border from Thailand to Malaya on the Butterworth express.

Turkey is of course (for the moment ) a secular state. Maybe I am guilty of trial by media. I know that many who have been in Arabia (I haven't) have found them the most open, hospitable and tolerant people they could wish. Maybe a good deal of the problems we have now are down to the west, rather than the Middle east.

The recent bombs in Stockholm..I wondered, what the heck has Sweden done? Well, apart from rude cartoons (perhaps the cord - pulling maniac didn't know the difference between Denmark and Sweden) there are Swedish troops in Afghanistan. And maybe Stockholm is a softer target than Montreal.

As to uneducated Pakistanis, most of the bombers seem to have just enough learning to be dangerous. What I have to remind myself is, considering how many muslims there are and the depth of their resentment of the west, it is astonishing that there apparently so few real bipedal threats.

Probably most would just prefer to be left in peace to get on with running the fruit - stall.
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