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Old 08-06-2008, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Fondren SW Yo
2,783 posts, read 6,002,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
no , we consider adam (pbuh) the first muslim
abraham relegion is pure and clear , all the prophets after him followed his relegion , to worshipps one God without associating any images or any other Gods with him


2-135 - They say: become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (to salvation). say thou (O'mohammed to them): nay! (i would rather) the religion of Abraham the true, and he joined not gods with God.


3-67 - Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in faith, and bowed his will to God's, (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with God.


6-161 - Say(o'mahammed): verily, my lord hath guided me to a way that is straight, a religion of right, the path (trod) by Abraham the true in faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with God.


16-123 - So we have taught thee the inspired (message), follow the ways of Abraham the true in faith, and he joined not gods with God.

So Muslims consider Judaism the true faith since Abraham was the first Jew? And how exactly was Adam the first Muslim since Islam started 1500 years ago? Or is there where we get to the part where Islam ripped off Judaism, changed some names and the rest is history as they say?
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:49 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,085 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesaje View Post
Every person who ever started a religion made statements going against the norms of society. In modern times, Joseph Smith is a prime example. How else to get a following and amass power to oneself? And amazingly enough, that is exactly what Mohammed did - got a following and fought war after war until he ruled quite an empire. Nothing like religious fervor to motivate warriors to murder and mayhem.
so you see that Joseph Smith is a prime example for what mohammed (pbuh) did ?

are you ready for comparison between two of them ?

Quote:
Umm, yes. Most writers have a consistent style.
When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in
richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and
challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in
Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldnt
possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even
exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time
of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never
been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and
variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a
time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in
all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression,
etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the
unbeatten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of
Quran.

An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.


Quote:
Well, yes it does. Most people sound quite different in writing than in speaking and different still when engaged in casual speech with friends or family.
first of all , mohammed didn't write anything , he spoke by quran also

beside Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school ! No one taught him. He
had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the
knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that
is contained in the Quran ?
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Old 08-06-2008, 12:30 PM
 
2,955 posts, read 6,746,725 times
Reputation: 1928
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
so you see that Joseph Smith is a prime example for what mohammed (pbuh) did ?

are you ready for comparison between two of them ?
I'm ready. How are Joseph Smith and Mohammed similar?
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Old 08-06-2008, 01:09 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,085 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by rb4browns View Post
So Muslims consider Judaism the true faith since Abraham was the first Jew? And how exactly was Adam the first Muslim since Islam started 1500 years ago? Or is there where we get to the part where Islam ripped off Judaism, changed some names and the rest is history as they say?
because the islam isn't a new relegion came by mohammed (pbuh)
islam means ( submit to will of God alone ) , every prophet his massage is to worshipps the God , obey him , not associate others with him , we called it islam massage

we didn't consider the islam as to be the relegion of Mohammed , we consider it the relegion of God , mohammed (pbuh) the last prophet for this massage , by another word islam massage isn't new massage , it's a massage of all prophets

3-67 - Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in faith, and bowed his will to God's, (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with God.

this verse from quran , may be you didn't believe in quran , but can you refuse the view of this vese ? i don't think so
abraham (pbuh) wasn't christian nor jew and let me add nor mohammadian .
his relegion was pure and true faith for one God , bowed his will to him
this is the masage of islam


2-130 - And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? him we chose and rendered pure in this world: and he will be in the hereafter in the ranks of the righteous

131 - Behold! his Lord said to him: bow (thy will to me): he(abraham) said: i bow (my will) to the Lord and cherisher of the universe.

132 - And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; oh my sons! God hath chosen the faith for you; then die not except in the faith of Islam.

133 - Were ye(o'people) witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? behold, he said to his sons: what will ye worship after me? they said: we shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac. the one (true) God: to him we bow (in Islam).



what was the massage of Quran to christians and jews whom didn't believe in mohammed (pbuh) ? is was the same massage of abraham

64 - Say(o'moahammed): O people of the book come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lord and patrons other than God. if then they turn back, say ye: bear witness that we (at last) are Muslims (bowing to God's will
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Old 08-06-2008, 02:08 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,085 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
I'm ready. How are Joseph Smith and Mohammed similar?
you said to me in previous post
Every person who ever started a religion made statements going against the norms of society. In modern times, Joseph Smith is a prime example. How else to get a following and amass power to oneself? And amazingly enough, that is exactly what Mohammed did - got a following and fought war after war until he ruled quite an empire. Nothing like religious fervor to motivate warriors to murder and mayhem.


so , my dear , you believe that mohammed (pbuh) wanted to amass power to himself !!!

let us examine these thoughts with reading few lines from history of mohammed (pbuh)


Long before there was any prospect of success for Islam and at the outset of a long and painful era of torture, suffering, and persecution of Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers, he received an interesting offer. An envoy of the pagan leaders, Otba, came to him saying, “...If you want money, we will collect enough money for you so that you will be the richest one of us. If you want leadership, we will take you as our leader and never decide on any matter without your approval. If you want a kingdom, we will crown you king over us...” Only one concession was required from Muhammad (pbuh) in return for that, to give up calling people to Islam and worshipping God alone without any partner.

Wouldn’t this offer be tempting to one pursuing worldly benefit?
Was Muhammad (pbuh) hesitant when the offer was made?
Did he turn it down as a bargaining strategy leaving the door open for a better offer?

The following was his answer: {In the Name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful} And he recited to Otba the verses of the Quran 41:1-38.11

The Following are some of these verses:

A revelation from (God), the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful; a Book whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Quran in Arabic, for people who know, giving good news and warning, yet most of them turn away, so they do not listen. (Quran, 41:2-4)


On another occasion and in response to his uncle’s plea to stop calling people to Islam, Muhammad’s (pbuh) answer was as decisive and sincere: {I swear by the name of God, O Uncle!, that if they place the sun in my right-hand and the moon in my left-hand in return for giving up this matter (calling people to Islam), I will never desist until either God makes it triumph or I perish defending it.}
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:17 AM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 12,056,039 times
Reputation: 2141
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
When Quran was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in
richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Quran came and
challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in
Arabic of the time. Mohammad (pbuh) being illiterate couldnt
possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even
exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time
of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never
been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and
variety in literature, as it was in the time of Quran. At a
time like this, Quran came and exceeded the best of Arabic in
all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression,
etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the
unbeatten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of
Quran.

An illiterate man is simply not capable of writing such a book.
Regardless of whether Mohamed was illiterate or dictated the book, he was the leader who created Islam. It didn't exist prior. It is a fact that Mohamed amassed wealth and an empire, using the new religion of Islam to rally his followers.

It is also completely untrue that Arabic literature was at its peak at the time of Mohammad. At that time (6th century BCE) is was nearly non-exsistant. The great flowering of Arabic literature (and science and math) was a few hundred years afterwards during the Sultanate periods when Islamic/Arab rulers had complete control over the mid-east, and north Africa. At the time of Mohammed, Arabs were pretty much like the illiterate Bedoins of today with their own brand of animism type religion (instead of Islam) along with large sections of Christians in those areas.

I'm not going to argue the theology of Islam or incorporation of Jewish myths into the religion. But making up history is just as unacceptable for Islam as it is for Christians or anybody else.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:18 AM
 
Location: DC Area, for now
3,517 posts, read 12,056,039 times
Reputation: 2141
Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
I'm ready. How are Joseph Smith and Mohammed similar?
They both thought having multiple wives was a good thing?
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