U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-24-2008, 05:57 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Dan View Post
But can you PROVE this universe was created by THAT GLORIUS ONE? No! You cant. Thats faith. Not proof.
surely , we have the proofs
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-24-2008, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,262 posts, read 16,371,801 times
Reputation: 10042
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
surely , we have the proofs
Okay. Show me dude!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-24-2008, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,144 posts, read 5,108,084 times
Reputation: 2539
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
if i found complex tenchnoloy in another planet (technology more complex than we have) , i will suppose that there were others more intellegence than us existed in that planet before me , even if i never seen them or knew them , it's a matter of logic
Can you empirically prove that the universe was created by an intelligent designer. If you can't provide any empirical evidence for how the universe could be created by an intelligent being then it is just a label. Also, there are many defects within organisms which cause them to not function as well as they could. The universe tends to show more 'ignorant design' or 'unintelligent design' given the many flaws that are within it. Also, the difference between a peice of complex technology and and something complex in nature is that it took a gradual process of billions of years to produce such a level of complexity in nature and the accumulative steps came into the complex organisms.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-24-2008, 08:50 PM
 
148 posts, read 263,540 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
surely , we have the proofs
Just I want to remind you my brother elwill with something,

God said what means:

109. And they swear their strongest oaths by All‚h, that if there came to them a sign, they would surely believe therein. Say: "Signs are but with All‚h and what will make you (Muslims) perceive that (even) if it (the sign) came, they will not believe?"

110. And We shall turn their hearts and their eyes away (from guidance), as they refused to believe therein for the first time, and We shall leave them in their trespass to wander blindly.


111. And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless All‚h willed, but most of them behave ignorantly.

112. And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies - Shay‚tin (devils) among mankind and jinns, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception). If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it, so leave them alone with their fabrications.

113. (And this is in order) that the hearts of those who disbelieve in the Hereafter may incline to such (deceit), and that they may remain pleased with it, and that they may commit what they are committing (all kinds of sins and evil deeds, etc.).

114. [Say (O Muhammad PBUH)] "Shall I seek a judge other than All‚h while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'‚n), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taur‚t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-24-2008, 09:57 PM
 
148 posts, read 263,540 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Can you empirically prove that the universe was created by an intelligent designer. If you can't provide any empirical evidence for how the universe could be created by an intelligent being then it is just a label. Also, there are many defects within organisms which cause them to not function as well as they could. The universe tends to show more 'ignorant design' or 'unintelligent design' given the many flaws that are within it. Also, the difference between a peice of complex technology and and something complex in nature is that it took a gradual process of billions of years to produce such a level of complexity in nature and the accumulative steps came into the complex organisms.
It is not fair to take part of the religion and ignore the rest, as those who cut the stories so that they can change the truth.

First, yes this universe is created not only by intelligent designer, but by The All Knowing The All Wise and The All Aware Innovative Creator.

And you didn't say the truth when you said that "The universe tends to show more 'ignorant design' or 'unintelligent design' given the many flaws that are within it."
Ney, It shows more accuracy and wonderful design, you could look at them if you wished, but you decide to ignore them all, yet they are the most.

The imperfections in the world is due to some reasons:

1. The sin of human being and their mischief on Earth such as the nuclear bombs that is used in wars.

2. Changing the creation of God like those who change the colour of their skin, etc, and like homosexuality

3. Eating non-natural food, man made food result in illness and it is not as advantagious as natural food.

4. To spread Mercy between people, because if they were all at one level, there would be no mercy between them.
The Mercy doesn't come from the one who is less than you.
The punishment also, doesn't come from the one who is less than you.

Nothing is said to you (O Muhammad PBUH) except what was said to the Messengers before you. Verily, your Lord is the Possessor of forgiveness, and (also) the Possessor of painful punishment (41:43)

5. To undestand the meaning of all that is good.
we understand many things when we see their opposites.

6. To test people.
Those upon whom God bestowed many favours, have to thank Him and appreciate His provision and help thereby His slaves (all that exist, people, animals, etc).
And Those who has some defections, must forbear and hope good for themselves and for others including those who have no defections, and there will be a wonderful reward from God for them.

Notice that when God take something, He will give you in replacement another thing like the blind have a powerful hear and in the day of judgment there are more reward for those who forbear for the sake of their Lord.

7. God said what means:

68. And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses, no choice have they (in any matter). Glorified be All‚h, and exalted above all that they associate as partners (with Him).

69. And your Lord knows what their breasts conceal, and what they reveal.

70. And He is All‚h; L‚ il‚ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). His is all praise, in the first (i.e. in this world) and in the last (i.e.in the Hereafter). And for Him is the Decision, and to Him shall you (all) be returned.

71. Say (O Muhammad PBUH): "Tell me! If All‚h made night continuous for you till the Day of Resurrection, who is an il‚h (a god) besides All‚h who could bring you light? Will you not then hear?"

72. Say (O Muhammad PBUH): "Tell me! If All‚h made day continuous for you till the Day of Resurrection, who is an il‚h (a god) besides All‚h who could bring you night wherein you rest? Will you not then see?"

73. It is out of His Mercy that He has put for you night and day, that you may rest therein (i.e. during the night) and that you may seek of His Bounty (i.e. during the day), and in order that you may be grateful.

74. And (remember) the Day when He (your Lord All‚h) will call them (those who worshipped others along with All‚h), and will say: "Where are My (so-called) partners, whom you used to assert?"

75. And We shall take out from every nation a witness, and We shall say: "Bring your proof." Then they shall know that the truth is with All‚h (Alone), and the lies (false gods) which they invented will disappear from them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 08:55 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Can you empirically prove that the universe was created by an intelligent designer. If you can't provide any empirical evidence for how the universe could be created by an intelligent being then it is just a label. Also, there are many defects within organisms which cause them to not function as well as they could. The universe tends to show more 'ignorant design' or 'unintelligent design' given the many flaws that are within it. Also, the difference between a peice of complex technology and and something complex in nature is that it took a gradual process of billions of years to produce such a level of complexity in nature and the accumulative steps came into the complex organisms.
if someone create somthing , he will be the most knower about it
our God gave us many proofs in the quran that he is the creator of us and the creator of universe .

1
The first apparent that man faced in travelling in the space and tried to overcome it was the (dyspnea),and this problem occurs from the rarity of air in the upper layers of the sky (space) and we can notice that the quran foretold about this problem from 1400 years ago and behold that no one was awared by this problem till the scientists discovered that in the present century.
#Quran ( [006:125] Those whom God (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.)
-The god said in the previous versus that the one who climb up in the sky his breast is clothed and constricted.

2
After the geologicals do their research ,they found that the deepest part on the world is that which lies in the dead sea where the roman empire was defeated,and we can clearly notice that when the quran foretold from 1425 years ago that this place is the deepest place on the earth where romans are defeated.
#Quran ( [030:002] The Roman Empire has been defeated-
[030:003] In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

3
The scientists who are intersted in the study of seas and oceans have discovered that there are internal waves at the very depth of the oceans and seas in addition to the waves that we see in the ocean and they called this ( deep sea) ( where this waves lie), and this ( deep sea) are characterized by their fully darkness so as that the creatures that live there ( fish) have no eyes, and no person can see anything in this place because of its darkness.
#Quran ( [024:040] Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom God giveth not light, there is no light! )
-The quran foretold about this (deep sea) and the waves in it and its fully darkness from 1425 years ago,u still don`t want to believe in that


4
#The chemists discovered that the (iron metal) cann`t be formed on the earth because its formation temperature ( the temperature that iron need to form the iron metal) is very very high and cann`t be found on the earth so the iron metal must be formed on another place that have very high temerature and then it is sent to earh ( another place as sun).
#Quran ( [057:025] We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that God may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).
-Notice that the most high said "we sent down iron"!!!!

5
Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.
This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.
1 For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water.
When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics.
The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth
Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said:
He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.

But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of ďa forbidding partitionĒ with the barrier. God has said in the Quran:
He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.


so our prophet informed us that the quran is the words of allah the creator
indeed , the modern science proofed that this quran is from the creator
may be you didn't want to accept these facts , but at least we have our reasons to believe that there is a God and that the quran is his words

what is your proofs then , if you wanna to convince me that there is no God


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 09:21 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
Just I want to remind you my brother elwill with something,

God said what means:

109. And they swear their strongest oaths by All‚h, that if there came to them a sign, they would surely believe therein. Say: "Signs are but with All‚h and what will make you (Muslims) perceive that (even) if it (the sign) came, they will not believe?"

110. And We shall turn their hearts and their eyes away (from guidance), as they refused to believe therein for the first time, and We shall leave them in their trespass to wander blindly.


111. And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless All‚h willed, but most of them behave ignorantly.

112. And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies - Shay‚tin (devils) among mankind and jinns, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception). If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it, so leave them alone with their fabrications.

113. (And this is in order) that the hearts of those who disbelieve in the Hereafter may incline to such (deceit), and that they may remain pleased with it, and that they may commit what they are committing (all kinds of sins and evil deeds, etc.).

114. [Say (O Muhammad PBUH)] "Shall I seek a judge other than All‚h while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'‚n), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taur‚t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.
[/quote]

thank you brother
i just trying to inform about islam , allah , and our peophet (pbuh)
it dosn't matter if they trust it or not , i hope that may be this information will be guidence for someone to take a deep , fair and unbiased look on islam

thank you for your remindness
peace
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,262 posts, read 16,371,801 times
Reputation: 10042
thank you brother
i just trying to inform about islam , allah , and our peophet (pbuh)
it dosn't matter if they trust it or not , i hope that may be this information will be guidence for someone to take a deep , fair and unbiased look on islam

thank you for your remindness
peace[/quote]
You have proven nothing. All you did was quote the Quran. Hell man. i can write abook and swear up and down that its all true! "some burning bush came to me in a cloud and said he was God!" Just because its written doesnt make it true.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,144 posts, read 5,108,084 times
Reputation: 2539
Quote:
Originally Posted by a slave of Allah View Post
It is not fair to take part of the religion and ignore the rest, as those who cut the stories so that they can change the truth.

First, yes this universe is created not only by intelligent designer, but by The All Knowing The All Wise and The All Aware Innovative Creator.

And you didn't say the truth when you said that "The universe tends to show more 'ignorant design' or 'unintelligent design' given the many flaws that are within it."
Ney, It shows more accuracy and wonderful design, you could look at them if you wished, but you decide to ignore them all, yet they are the most.

The imperfections in the world is due to some reasons:

1. The sin of human being and their mischief on Earth such as the nuclear bombs that is used in wars.

2. Changing the creation of God like those who change the colour of their skin, etc, and like homosexuality

3. Eating non-natural food, man made food result in illness and it is not as advantagious as natural food.

4. To spread Mercy between people, because if they were all at one level, there would be no mercy between them.
The Mercy doesn't come from the one who is less than you.
The punishment also, doesn't come from the one who is less than you.

Nothing is said to you (O Muhammad PBUH) except what was said to the Messengers before you. Verily, your Lord is the Possessor of forgiveness, and (also) the Possessor of painful punishment (41:43)

5. To undestand the meaning of all that is good.
we understand many things when we see their opposites.

6. To test people.
Those upon whom God bestowed many favours, have to thank Him and appreciate His provision and help thereby His slaves (all that exist, people, animals, etc).
And Those who has some defections, must forbear and hope good for themselves and for others including those who have no defections, and there will be a wonderful reward from God for them.

Notice that when God take something, He will give you in replacement another thing like the blind have a powerful hear and in the day of judgment there are more reward for those who forbear for the sake of their Lord.

7. God said what means:

68. And your Lord creates whatsoever He wills and chooses, no choice have they (in any matter). Glorified be All‚h, and exalted above all that they associate as partners (with Him).

69. And your Lord knows what their breasts conceal, and what they reveal.

70. And He is All‚h; L‚ il‚ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). His is all praise, in the first (i.e. in this world) and in the last (i.e.in the Hereafter). And for Him is the Decision, and to Him shall you (all) be returned.

71. Say (O Muhammad PBUH): "Tell me! If All‚h made night continuous for you till the Day of Resurrection, who is an il‚h (a god) besides All‚h who could bring you light? Will you not then hear?"

72. Say (O Muhammad PBUH): "Tell me! If All‚h made day continuous for you till the Day of Resurrection, who is an il‚h (a god) besides All‚h who could bring you night wherein you rest? Will you not then see?"

73. It is out of His Mercy that He has put for you night and day, that you may rest therein (i.e. during the night) and that you may seek of His Bounty (i.e. during the day), and in order that you may be grateful.

74. And (remember) the Day when He (your Lord All‚h) will call them (those who worshipped others along with All‚h), and will say: "Where are My (so-called) partners, whom you used to assert?"

75. And We shall take out from every nation a witness, and We shall say: "Bring your proof." Then they shall know that the truth is with All‚h (Alone), and the lies (false gods) which they invented will disappear from them.
There are many defects within nature that suggest it was not created by an all powerful creator. What about cancer, disease, bodily decay. What about the human mind and the matter of the body. From an engineering perspective, the design of the human mind and matter of the body are quite a mess. For instance the human memory. Humans often have trouble remembering even the most basic facts such as where they put their keys or where they parked their car. Eye witness testimony is very inaccurate because someone's brain blurs their memories together. The problem with memory leads to many other issues that affect someone negatively such as dealing with random numbers or subconciously clouding one's judgement. Also there are many defects that make the body flawed as well such as the human spine supports 70% of the body's weight with a single column whereas four might have helped to distribute the load better(greatly reducing the debiliting back pain), and the human retina is placed backward, with the many neural fibers coming out of the front rather than the back, giving humans the needless blind spot. Also, what about the many fallacies in human reasoning.

Last edited by agnostic soldier; 09-25-2008 at 04:53 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2008, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,144 posts, read 5,108,084 times
Reputation: 2539
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
if someone create somthing , he will be the most knower about it
our God gave us many proofs in the quran that he is the creator of us and the creator of universe .

1
The first apparent that man faced in travelling in the space and tried to overcome it was the (dyspnea),and this problem occurs from the rarity of air in the upper layers of the sky (space) and we can notice that the quran foretold about this problem from 1400 years ago and behold that no one was awared by this problem till the scientists discovered that in the present century.
#Quran ( [006:125] Those whom God (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.)
-The god said in the previous versus that the one who climb up in the sky his breast is clothed and constricted.

2
After the geologicals do their research ,they found that the deepest part on the world is that which lies in the dead sea where the roman empire was defeated,and we can clearly notice that when the quran foretold from 1425 years ago that this place is the deepest place on the earth where romans are defeated.
#Quran ( [030:002] The Roman Empire has been defeated-
[030:003] In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

3
The scientists who are intersted in the study of seas and oceans have discovered that there are internal waves at the very depth of the oceans and seas in addition to the waves that we see in the ocean and they called this ( deep sea) ( where this waves lie), and this ( deep sea) are characterized by their fully darkness so as that the creatures that live there ( fish) have no eyes, and no person can see anything in this place because of its darkness.
#Quran ( [024:040] Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom God giveth not light, there is no light! )
-The quran foretold about this (deep sea) and the waves in it and its fully darkness from 1425 years ago,u still don`t want to believe in that


4
#The chemists discovered that the (iron metal) cann`t be formed on the earth because its formation temperature ( the temperature that iron need to form the iron metal) is very very high and cann`t be found on the earth so the iron metal must be formed on another place that have very high temerature and then it is sent to earh ( another place as sun).
#Quran ( [057:025] We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that God may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).
-Notice that the most high said "we sent down iron"!!!!

5
Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.
This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.
1 For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water.
When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics.
The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth
Although there are large waves, strong currents, and tides in these seas, they do not mix or transgress this barrier.

The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress. God has said:
He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.

But when the Quran speaks about the divider between fresh and salt water, it mentions the existence of ďa forbidding partitionĒ with the barrier. God has said in the Quran:
He is the one who has set free the two kinds of water, one sweet and palatable, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a forbidding partition.


so our prophet informed us that the quran is the words of allah the creator
indeed , the modern science proofed that this quran is from the creator
may be you didn't want to accept these facts , but at least we have our reasons to believe that there is a God and that the quran is his words

what is your proofs then , if you wanna to convince me that there is no God


The proof there is no god is that it is a proofless claim which is conveniently undectable by scientific testing. Also, you can't prove the verses in the qur'an are talking about things that modern science has discovered, the verses are to vague so it could be talking about anything. Your trying to make the verses fit in with what science has found when the verses mean something completely different.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top