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Old 09-27-2008, 11:15 AM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,849 posts, read 30,397,094 times
Reputation: 22357

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Good statements, Christian Arab. I would clarify, however, that the crusades were initiated and carried out by those calling themselves Christians. Many throughout history have called themselves Christians, but the were naming the name of Christ without really belonging to Christ. Hitler, for example, was a "Christian" only in the sense that there are two types of people--Christian and non-Christian. It was a religious title only. Hitler was not a Christian in the biblical sense of the word nor were those behind the crusades.

Preterist
It is very easy to say, in retrospect, that the Crusades were not Christian in the biblical sense. How do you reconcile the fact that high-level members of the church were ACTIVELY INVOLVED in the wholesale murder and distruction of innocent lives? For example when Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Citeaux, 1209, when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathars replied: "Kill them all; for the Lord knoweth them that are His."

Simply saying that the deed was not a "Christian act" does not absolve the church or Christianity of it. You cannot have it both ways. And yes, that was a long time ago, but such things occurr even today in third-world countries, on a lesser scale perhaps, when women are tortured and murdered in Africa for being "Witches" by so-called Christians. We have not grown so much, really.

20yrsinBranson
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Old 09-27-2008, 03:31 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,969 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
I read several threads on these boards about Islam being a beautiful, peaceful religion among other similar rhetoric. Yet, I haven’t seen any evidence of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam, and the real world paints quite the opposite picture of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam is intolerant of other faiths, today’s Islam is violent against other faiths, today’s Muslim counties have prosecuted non Muslims, today’s Muslims that chose to live in Western counties refuse to assimilate, and refuse to follow the law of the land.

How can today’s Islam be a beautiful and peaceful religion when countries like Saudi Arabia publish tens of millions of their version of the Quran, in which, it openly highlights that Jews and Christians are the enemy of Islam? What about the state run TV stations airing anti Christian/Jewish cartoons for the next Muslims generation? Heck, even in schools, and school books, they’re teaching kid’s intolerance and violence.

How come we never hear of an Iraqi Christian, Lebanese Christian, or a Palestinian Christian going Jihad Joe/Jane? I mean, ALL the people there are suffering equally no? In today’s Iraq, we are witnessing an all out extermination of Christians in the hands of Muslims.

All I hear from the Muslims and Liberals is “what about the crusaders”, “Hitler”, “abortion clinic bombing and so on.
Crusaders: yes, Christianity is responsible for vile acts, no one is denying that. However, that was centuries ago. Since then, as human beings evolving, Christianity has gone through major reform. Looking at today’s Islam actions around the world, Muslims are devolving.
Hitler: yes, he was a nasty man; yes he was a Christian man. But correct me if I’m wrong, he didn’t use Christianity to justify his actions. He didn’t hold the Bible on one hand and ordered his troops to kill on the other. And let’s not forget, his fellow Christians stood up and defeated him.
Abortion bombings: yes, even though Christianity gone through major reforms, there are still crazies out there harming people in the name of Christians. But honestly, we’re comparing two bombing in the last ten-fifteen years versus countless attacks by Islamic extremist globally on a daily basis which in times, it can impact world markets? No comparison at all.

It’s no wonder why the WEST is so nervous and suspicious of Muslims/Islam. We have the right to be. We have seen very little effort/actions to confront radical Islam. We have seen plenty of violent acts and huge rallies against silly cartoons, and Pop’s remarks. The FEW individuals that speak out against radical Islam are either dead or in hiding.

I guess my entire post can be summed up to this. Talk is cheap, actions are louder than words. You can post how Islam is beautiful and peaceful, you don’t FOOL US. The actions taken by radicals and lack of actions taken by Moderate Muslims say otherwise.

As an observer of CURRENT world events, this is merely my views/opinion.
people can say the same against christians and jews as well , then what ?
what is the purposes of this forum then ? what is the purpose of existing people from every relegion for exchanging thier points of view

can we revert your discussion to positive one ?
you have negative view about islam or muslims then discuss it with us with respect and open minded
you are free to criticize islam , and we have the right to respond and you should listen to our responding

so if you have reliable information or specific points for discussion about islam . you are wellcome

after all ,christian arab , and please dont upset from my openion , but you form your view against islam from CURRENT world events , are you mean the media ?!!!!
oh , i'm not surprised
my advice to you , make your researches and your observence more authentic and more wise
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:08 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,196 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
I read several threads on these boards about Islam being a beautiful, peaceful religion among other similar rhetoric. Yet, I haven’t seen any evidence of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam, and the real world paints quite the opposite picture of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam is intolerant of other faiths, today’s Islam is violent against other faiths, today’s Muslim counties have prosecuted non Muslims, today’s Muslims that chose to live in Western counties refuse to assimilate, and refuse to follow the law of the land.

How can today’s Islam be a beautiful and peaceful religion when countries like Saudi Arabia publish tens of millions of their version of the Quran, in which, it openly highlights that Jews and Christians are the enemy of Islam? What about the state run TV stations airing anti Christian/Jewish cartoons for the next Muslims generation? Heck, even in schools, and school books, they’re teaching kid’s intolerance and violence.

How come we never hear of an Iraqi Christian, Lebanese Christian, or a Palestinian Christian going Jihad Joe/Jane? I mean, ALL the people there are suffering equally no? In today’s Iraq, we are witnessing an all out extermination of Christians in the hands of Muslims.

All I hear from the Muslims and Liberals is “what about the crusaders”, “Hitler”, “abortion clinic bombing and so on.
Crusaders: yes, Christianity is responsible for vile acts, no one is denying that. However, that was centuries ago. Since then, as human beings evolving, Christianity has gone through major reform. Looking at today’s Islam actions around the world, Muslims are devolving.
Hitler: yes, he was a nasty man; yes he was a Christian man. But correct me if I’m wrong, he didn’t use Christianity to justify his actions. He didn’t hold the Bible on one hand and ordered his troops to kill on the other. And let’s not forget, his fellow Christians stood up and defeated him.
Abortion bombings: yes, even though Christianity gone through major reforms, there are still crazies out there harming people in the name of Christians. But honestly, we’re comparing two bombing in the last ten-fifteen years versus countless attacks by Islamic extremist globally on a daily basis which in times, it can impact world markets? No comparison at all.

It’s no wonder why the WEST is so nervous and suspicious of Muslims/Islam. We have the right to be. We have seen very little effort/actions to confront radical Islam. We have seen plenty of violent acts and huge rallies against silly cartoons, and Pop’s remarks. The FEW individuals that speak out against radical Islam are either dead or in hiding.

I guess my entire post can be summed up to this. Talk is cheap, actions are louder than words. You can post how Islam is beautiful and peaceful, you don’t FOOL US. The actions taken by radicals and lack of actions taken by Moderate Muslims say otherwise.

As an observer of CURRENT world events, this is merely my views/opinion.

No one is trying to FOOL anyone.

There are always going to be people that use religion and twist it to forward their agenda.

Look at Bush, he uses his religion to justify wars, his stance on abortion, etc......

"God gave it to us" ---creating Israel where it was created, not somewhere else.

As long as there is religion, there will be people using it in every way shape and form to get what they want.

Even if they are not "holding the bible in one hand and ordering troops to shoot in the other".

And exactly what do Muslims need to do to assimilate, btw? Not cover their heads, Get a christmas tree, What???? Start muslim-bashing like a lot of other Americans, would that make them fit in?
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Shumway, Az.
139 posts, read 386,589 times
Reputation: 107
Christian Arab, I agree and you said it very well!!
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:49 AM
 
500 posts, read 636,624 times
Reputation: 155
Greetings,
First off, thanks to all that took the time and posted. Second, I purposely didn’t reply because I wanted to see what type of responses/answers/solutions I would get for my original post.

Regarding the replies, they are exactly what I expected. No one provided realistic solutions or any solution for that matter or even entertained the idea for a solution. Other than MontanaGuy, nobody even acknowledge the problems in the Muslims community. Instead, some of you seem to be defensive, hostile, labeling me as hateful, disrespectful, bias, limited knowledge on the subject, and so on. Ohh well, you are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine.

Quoting verses from the Quran is irrelevant. Much like every Holy book, the Quran caters to everybody. If you an extremist, you will find verses to justify your actions, if you are a moderate, there are verses to justify that. I can just as easily find verses in the Quran that calls for violence against non believer, so please spare us your “feel good verses of the day”, they don’t apply.

No one is saying the millions upon millions of Muslims aren’t peaceful. I am simply saying the moderates that like to preach to us that Islam is peaceful and tolerant, should look at what is going on in the real world. You even agree with some of what I said, MontanaGuy. The moderates need to find a solution to the modern-day crusade/Jihad. If they chose to be silent, then they will be categorized as part of the problem, and NOT part of the solution. I don’t know the exact percentage of radicals out there, I think it’s irrelevant, but I know it is enough (and growing) to affect the world market and cause mayhem in global scale.

How does the actions taken by the West warrants the killing of your fellow countrymen just because they happen to be Christian? If you think America is bad, fine, deal with America. The senseless killing of individuals because they happen to be Christian to get back at America and other Christian nation, or the killing of folks that chose to convert to another religion, the intolerance and hate toward other faiths doesn’t exactly paints of picture of peace and love.

Regarding my limited perspective? Here is some food for thought. I was born and raised in the Middle East; I went to public schools where it is mandatory to take religion classes, and as you know, the religion of choice there is Islam. The neighborhood I grew up in was considered upper-class, and the people living there were fairly educated. During my stay there, I witnessed many of Christian friends being threatened, beaten, and forced to convert. Imagine seeing your friends at Church one week, then not seeing them for a while only to find out that they were being forced to convert. I witnessed the shame on their face; I will never forget it.

There absolutely is such word as “devolving”. If the US chooses to ban all women (for example) for whatever reason from voting, this means that all the hard work the women have put forth and contributed for women rights have been in vain, and therefore the country is devolving.

As noted in my original post, Christians are responsible for many vile acts. You will never see me defending the actions of the crusaders. And honestly, what is the point of bringing an event that happened centuries ago? Is this an attempt to justify the current actions taken by radical Islam? The notion of “you guys did it” is preposterous. As human beings, we are supposed to LEARN from history, NOT repeat it.

I asked honest questions, questions based on what is going on in the world in the hand of Muslims performing acts in the name of Islam. My post(s) wasn’t meant to offend/provoke people, so quit playing the sensitivity card. Believe me or not, if the moderates/true Muslims would grow a pair and stand up to the radicals, I would be the first person to defend Islam. My post isn’t about bashing Islam, rather, it is frustration from the lack of effort from the moderates to combat radical Islam.
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Old 09-29-2008, 11:56 AM
 
500 posts, read 636,624 times
Reputation: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
No one is trying to FOOL anyone.

There are always going to be people that use religion and twist it to forward their agenda.

Look at Bush, he uses his religion to justify wars, his stance on abortion, etc......

"God gave it to us" ---creating Israel where it was created, not somewhere else.

As long as there is religion, there will be people using it in every way shape and form to get what they want.

Even if they are not "holding the bible in one hand and ordering troops to shoot in the other".

And exactly what do Muslims need to do to assimilate, btw? Not cover their heads, Get a christmas tree, What???? Start muslim-bashing like a lot of other Americans, would that make them fit in?
I thought you Liberals said Bush went to Iraq for the Oil, now you’re saying it was for religious reasons? What about his abortion stance? Is it that horrible to help save lives? FYI, women still have a choice whether or not to have the child.

Let’s take a look, demands to implant Sharia laws (starting in London, and will make it’s way here in US), separate entrance for Muslims and non Muslims (some German schools, along with other EU schools), prayer rooms in public schools (some in California, where is the ACLU?), installing footbaths in public schools (in some universities, again, where is the ACLU?), Muslim Cabs unwilling to pickup passengers with alcohol, and let’s not forget about free speech. Even in the West, people are so scared to say anything about Islam, yet it’s open season on all other religions, makes you wonder, did the cartoon temper tantrum had to do anything with it?
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Old 03-25-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,495,336 times
Reputation: 579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
I read several threads on these boards about Islam being a beautiful, peaceful religion among other similar rhetoric. Yet, I haven’t seen any evidence of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam, and the real world paints quite the opposite picture of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam is intolerant of other faiths, today’s Islam is violent against other faiths, today’s Muslim counties have prosecuted non Muslims, today’s Muslims that chose to live in Western counties refuse to assimilate, and refuse to follow the law of the land.

How can today’s Islam be a beautiful and peaceful religion when countries like Saudi Arabia publish tens of millions of their version of the Quran, in which, it openly highlights that Jews and Christians are the enemy of Islam? What about the state run TV stations airing anti Christian/Jewish cartoons for the next Muslims generation? Heck, even in schools, and school books, they’re teaching kid’s intolerance and violence.

How come we never hear of an Iraqi Christian, Lebanese Christian, or a Palestinian Christian going Jihad Joe/Jane? I mean, ALL the people there are suffering equally no? In today’s Iraq, we are witnessing an all out extermination of Christians in the hands of Muslims.

All I hear from the Muslims and Liberals is “what about the crusaders”, “Hitler”, “abortion clinic bombing and so on.
Crusaders: yes, Christianity is responsible for vile acts, no one is denying that. However, that was centuries ago. Since then, as human beings evolving, Christianity has gone through major reform. Looking at today’s Islam actions around the world, Muslims are devolving.
Hitler: yes, he was a nasty man; yes he was a Christian man. But correct me if I’m wrong, he didn’t use Christianity to justify his actions. He didn’t hold the Bible on one hand and ordered his troops to kill on the other. And let’s not forget, his fellow Christians stood up and defeated him.
Abortion bombings: yes, even though Christianity gone through major reforms, there are still crazies out there harming people in the name of Christians. But honestly, we’re comparing two bombing in the last ten-fifteen years versus countless attacks by Islamic extremist globally on a daily basis which in times, it can impact world markets? No comparison at all.

It’s no wonder why the WEST is so nervous and suspicious of Muslims/Islam. We have the right to be. We have seen very little effort/actions to confront radical Islam. We have seen plenty of violent acts and huge rallies against silly cartoons, and Pop’s remarks. The FEW individuals that speak out against radical Islam are either dead or in hiding.

I guess my entire post can be summed up to this. Talk is cheap, actions are louder than words. You can post how Islam is beautiful and peaceful, you don’t FOOL US. The actions taken by radicals and lack of actions taken by Moderate Muslims say otherwise.

As an observer of CURRENT world events, this is merely my views/opinion.
Yea, I also agree they don't seem that peaceful.
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Old 03-25-2009, 09:28 PM
 
Location: OB
2,404 posts, read 3,511,752 times
Reputation: 879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
The actions taken by radicals and lack of actions taken by Moderate Muslims say otherwise.
Anyone well read, knows better and agrees.

The center of the Muslim world is Mecca, Saudi Arabia. I look at Saudi Arabia and judge the religion by what I see there. There is not even one church in the kingdom. I do not see that as an admission to being a religion of tolerance and acceptance. Furthermore, check this out. Here is a story about a young lady trapped in Saudi Arabia who cannot fly home because she is her husbands property. I'm really not down with that or that type of thought. Canada intervenes in Saudi marital dispute (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canadian%20woman%20claims%20being%20held%20against +will+Saudi+Arabia/1237498/story.html - broken link)

Can an American mother flee the Kingdom with her dual national children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Morley
It is impossible to legally leave the Kingdom without the express permission of the Saudi husband.
http://www.international-divorce.com/d-saudi.htm

Let's examine some other disturbing trends in this religion. This is the real Islam as they know in moderate Syria. Syria is moderate right? If you agree, then you must agree that this is moderate behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by translated arabic article about women rights in Syria
..exempted from punishment if the murder or abuse of the wife...recognizes the crime of adultery or fornication
Translated version of http://www.dchrs.com/show.php?cat=article&id=57

How do you feel about acid attacks on women? http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-62793843.html (broken link)

Do not get me wrong, the crazy parts of Islam are everywhere - including Britian. Listen to this puke preach: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...cher-hate.html. And this is what happens when the mullah from above article gets power and governs. I point out that this is Persia, the Shia homeland: http://www.ukgaynews.org.uk/Archive/2005july/2101.htm

That is three Muslim states already were I could NOT advise my hot chick or bolsterous gay friends of fear of their life to visit. That says something. Unless you conform to their customs, there is threat to your life in many of these "tolerant" "moderate" Muslim nations. And that's the true face of Islam. Your lifestyle doesn't get you killed in the West!!!

Last edited by mossomo; 03-25-2009 at 10:12 PM..
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Old 03-26-2009, 04:29 PM
 
Location: England
307 posts, read 440,622 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
I read several threads on these boards about Islam being a beautiful, peaceful religion among other similar rhetoric. Yet, I haven’t seen any evidence of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam, and the real world paints quite the opposite picture of the above descriptions. Today’s Islam is intolerant of other faiths, today’s Islam is violent against other faiths, today’s Muslim counties have prosecuted non Muslims, today’s Muslims that chose to live in Western counties refuse to assimilate, and refuse to follow the law of the land.

How can today’s Islam be a beautiful and peaceful religion when countries like Saudi Arabia publish tens of millions of their version of the Quran, in which, it openly highlights that Jews and Christians are the enemy of Islam? What about the state run TV stations airing anti Christian/Jewish cartoons for the next Muslims generation? Heck, even in schools, and school books, they’re teaching kid’s intolerance and violence.

How come we never hear of an Iraqi Christian, Lebanese Christian, or a Palestinian Christian going Jihad Joe/Jane? I mean, ALL the people there are suffering equally no? In today’s Iraq, we are witnessing an all out extermination of Christians in the hands of Muslims.

All I hear from the Muslims and Liberals is “what about the crusaders”, “Hitler”, “abortion clinic bombing and so on.
Crusaders: yes, Christianity is responsible for vile acts, no one is denying that. However, that was centuries ago. Since then, as human beings evolving, Christianity has gone through major reform. Looking at today’s Islam actions around the world, Muslims are devolving.
Hitler: yes, he was a nasty man; yes he was a Christian man. But correct me if I’m wrong, he didn’t use Christianity to justify his actions. He didn’t hold the Bible on one hand and ordered his troops to kill on the other. And let’s not forget, his fellow Christians stood up and defeated him.
Abortion bombings: yes, even though Christianity gone through major reforms, there are still crazies out there harming people in the name of Christians. But honestly, we’re comparing two bombing in the last ten-fifteen years versus countless attacks by Islamic extremist globally on a daily basis which in times, it can impact world markets? No comparison at all.

It’s no wonder why the WEST is so nervous and suspicious of Muslims/Islam. We have the right to be. We have seen very little effort/actions to confront radical Islam. We have seen plenty of violent acts and huge rallies against silly cartoons, and Pop’s remarks. The FEW individuals that speak out against radical Islam are either dead or in hiding.

I guess my entire post can be summed up to this. Talk is cheap, actions are louder than words. You can post how Islam is beautiful and peaceful, you don’t FOOL US. The actions taken by radicals and lack of actions taken by Moderate Muslims say otherwise.

As an observer of CURRENT world events, this is merely my views/opinion.
I think that Christian Arab is spot on in his observations.

Also, the link provided by mossomo to an article in the Daily Mail demonstrating the contempt that radical Muslims have for the 'infidel', and the way in which they can say such things without the law batting an eye-lid is a disgrace.

Contrast this with the Christian couple who have run a boarding house for years in England. They refused accommodation to a homosexual couple, who promptly complained to the authorities, and yes, you've guessed it, the Christan couple are now to be prosecuted. Despite the fact that they have also refused to allow unmarried heterosexual couples a bed, because of their Christian principles.
I digress slightly, but it is clear that, in England at least, Islam has become emboldened by the sheer lack of stomach shown by the police and our feeble 'diversity' obsessed government. They can say and do as they please without fear. It is the Christians who have to watch their backs.
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Old 03-26-2009, 09:22 PM
 
45 posts, read 107,191 times
Reputation: 24
Hi all,

This is a pretty "hot" topic and I don't want to fan any flames. I noticed the Crusades keep coming up, and so I wanted to post something if anyone's interested in reading it. Last December I became involved in a dialogue with a Muslim friend-of-friend, and it inspired me to write an article on Christianity and Warfare. It was published here:
war26.1.09.php

To those who say Christianity's history is proof of its inherent violence, I would like you to read it and see what you think. Thanks,
Katherine
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