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Old 02-15-2007, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Maine
16,542 posts, read 20,791,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
It's interesting that the Catholic church through Vatican II also claims that Muslims and "Christians" worship the same god.
True.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
The new Pope is apparently trying to get that rooted out,
Get what rooted out? Not sure what your "that" is referring to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
just like he's downplaying the concept of limbo/purgatory and the forgiveness of sin after death that was introduced by the Church in the Middle Ages...
Holy misconception mania, Batman! Not a bit of that last statement is true.

First of all, the Pope doesn't have the authority to change any doctrine on his own, whether he wants to or not.

Secondly, limbo and purgatory are not the same thing. Limbo was never an official Catholic doctrine. It was a tradition in many Catholic countries, but it was never adopted as doctrine. Purgatory is, and it is not introduced in the Middle Ages. The concept of Purgatory precedes the birth of Christ.
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Maine
16,542 posts, read 20,791,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
Most Muslims aren't radical, not anymore than most Christians are.
Right on. Al Qaeda is to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity. Fringe group nuts.
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Old 02-15-2007, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,078,502 times
Reputation: 2000001303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
True.




Get what rooted out? Not sure what your "that" is referring to.




Holy misconception mania, Batman! Not a bit of that last statement is true.

First of all, the Pope doesn't have the authority to change any doctrine on his own, whether he wants to or not.

Secondly, limbo and purgatory are not the same thing. Limbo was never an official Catholic doctrine. It was a tradition in many Catholic countries, but it was never adopted as doctrine. Purgatory is, and it is not introduced in the Middle Ages. The concept of Purgatory precedes the birth of Christ.
Rooting out as Pope Benedict is far more orthodox than previous popes since Vatican II. For example this paragraph on the subject from Catholic Apologetics International:
"Pope Benedict will bring back, at least to a noticeable degree, the doctrinal integrity of the Church. There will be no more implicit teachings of universal salvation; the Protestants will not be told they can be saved by faith alone; the pagans of the world will not be told they have direct access to God in their own religions; no apologies will be given for hard-line Catholic doctrines of the past. As for liturgy, if the requiem Mass for John Paul II is any indication of the sentiments of Pope Benedict XVI, ...the Latin Mass will be resurrected to a status unseen since Vatican II and the abuses of the Novus Ordo will be minimized.


Limbo: "The Catholic Church is preparing to abandon the idea of limbo, the theological belief that children who die before being baptised are suspended in a space between heaven and hell". The concept of limbo was introduced in the 13th Century. You're right that purgatory and limbo aren't the same thing, but tell me and show me where I said they were please? I mentioned them together as two concepts being disputed now that arose in Catholic theology in the "Middle Ages"...
(Definition of Middle Ages by Websters II New Riverside Dictionary: "The period of European history extending from approx. AD 476 to 1453".)
Judging by the definition, that would include the 13th Century wouldn't it )
"...an international commission of Catholic theologians, meeting in the Vatican ... has been pondering the issue and is expected to advise Pope Benedict XVI to announce officially that the theological concept of limbo is incorrect."

Purgatory: There are Christian writers going back to 200 who had varying concepts of a "Soul for schools" (Origin 3rd Century), but it wasn't there and was no official mention of purgatory in the Catholic Church before the 11th century and opposition to the concept was strong that doctrinal clarification was used in 1254 by decree. Pope Gregory in the 7th century (cleary after Christ...) mentioned "purgatorial fire" before judgement. The church said: "We, since they say a place of purgation of this kind has not been indicated to them with a certain and proper name by their teachers, we indeed, calling it purgatory according to the traditions and authority of the Holy Fathers, wish that in the future it be called by that name..." (Denzinger).
The 11th century...and the year 1254 for that matter, fall clearly within the "Middle Ages"...
Ratzinger apparently is rethinking doctrine: "Cosmological representations of hell, purgatory and heaven need to be revisited and relativized according to modern image of the world and to Vatican IIís Cristocentric theological perspective." (diocesequebec)
"Purgatory implies that there is an additional purging of sins required after death. In old Catholic theology, this sanctifying purging was as painful as being burned in fire! In new Catholic theology, the doctrine of purgatory is (1) either ignored, or (2) it is softened to simply represent some kind of washing of leftover transgressions that are eliminated in a painless manner." (conservativeonline).
"At the Tenth Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops last year, Archbishop George Pell of Sydney, Australia, noted "the considerable silence and some confusion [regarding] Christian hope especially as it touches the Last Things, death and judgment, Heaven and Hell. Limbo seems to have disappeared, Purgatory slipped into Limbo". (Catholicculture.org)
You're right that the concept of Limbo has never been definitively defined doctrine by the Magisterium, but was still part of the catechism until 1994 and referred to as "doctrine" by most Catholic sources. Your point there is in my opinion undeniably true, but effectively moot.

It's a great effort to go through rebuttals when it's against simple denials, and I won't do it again with you. I have better ways to spend my time!
But suffice it to say, you need to take a second look at what you call false.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:56 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,327,097 times
Reputation: 3319
MoMark,

I try to avoid your posts, but sometimes they are so outrageous!

Since you are obviously not Catholic, I hope you realize that what you posted said you are doomed.

Quote:
the Protestants will not be told they can be saved by faith alone
So, faith alone won't save you. You will have to become Catholic or you won't get to heaven.

Here's the group you went to for a quote:

Catholic Apologetics International

"CAI is self-described as "a Catholic lay apostolate dedicated to the teachings of Jesus Christ preserved by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church." The site has recently been improved significantly and contains a large amount of excellent apologetical material. But there is still some need for caution.
Apologetics as practiced on this site sometimes passes beyond legitimate argument. There is a tendency to underrate the complexity of controversial issues and to make dogmas out of opinions. In addition, those who disagree with these opinions are frequently dismissed as Modernists or otherwise assumed to be guilty of bad faith."



Ratzinger, who you quote, is but one Cardinal out of many. One of our family members is another Cardinal. We also have several priests and nuns. You wouldn't know it by me, but my family is actually very religious.

Here's a more full quote of Ratzinger:

"On purgatory and limbo, Ratzinger says, “The fact is that all of us today think we are so good that we deserve nothing less than heaven! No doubt our civilization is responsible for this in that it focuses on mitigating circumstances and alibis in the attempt to take away people’s sense of guilt, of sin” (145-6). The rejection of purgatory is often founded not on the same rationale as the rejection of hell, but on “Protestant biblicism,” which could not find the doctrine in scripture (146). He cites examples from Calvin and Luther, but concludes that the pervasiveness of prayers for the dead in the world proves that “if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it” (146). Ratzinger even defends the practice of indulgences (147). “Limbo” (a place where unbaptized infants go, since they have only the stain of original sin) was never a defined dogma, and Ratzinger personally believes that the Church should dispense with it, so long as the principle—viz., the necessity of baptism for remission of original sin is kept in tact (147).

Please note that he says The rejection of purgatory is often founded not on the same rationale as the rejection of hell, but on “Protestant biblicism,” which could not find the doctrine in scripture (146).

I hate to be critical but I think you try to mislead people and twist arguments so you can win them. This is not an honest way to operate.

I realize your religion is very important to you because you feel that you are a good Christian. Fortunately, I am glad that you don't speak for the Catholic faith.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,078,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
MoMark,

I try to avoid your posts, but sometimes they are so outrageous!

)
I've told you why I don't respect your posts. You put me on ignore for giving you my opinion, though I see that's changed. But I reaffirm my original statement to you and will use the following thread title as an example why I don't respect your posts:
Darfur=Holocaust.

Case closed.

Last edited by MoMark; 02-16-2007 at 09:05 AM..
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,959 posts, read 4,729,296 times
Reputation: 934
I will not comment on this thread--cuz I can't stand Islam.
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:54 AM
 
Location: The Bronx
1,587 posts, read 1,265,949 times
Reputation: 277
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Yeah...I've been a bit harsh with the poor lady... you're right
I was just kidding.

I read her autobiography. You are entirely right that she may not be much to look at, but she is one hell of a lady.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,166,213 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
I didn't interpert anything I have heard there leaders and seen their leaders on T.V. saying it with their own mouths!! I have not read the Quran but, the radicals are scary and were did they get the idea for suicides and killing their children? They say Allah tells them this!!
Wow, talk about hypocritical. Instead of posting a long response regarding your past statements to ďnon-believersĒ who quote from the bible, Iíll post your own response that applies to this situation. One in which you admit you havent read the Quran and only see and believe the negative.

god(s) religion and bibles:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
For most that reject the Bible you have to find reason to except it and if you are always looking for the negative you will never find the positive.
Just like you only look for the negative in Islam.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,166,213 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marks View Post
I will not comment on this thread--cuz I can't stand Islam.
Thanks for sparing us. We already know how you feel because the "bible tells you so". We're sure you won't try to understand any other faith, not that you have to believe in it or the message, but to understand what the faith is about. Knowledge is a scary thing.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Maine
16,542 posts, read 20,791,514 times
Reputation: 19133
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Rooting out as Pope Benedict is far more orthodox than previous popes since Vatican II.
No. All of the Popes since Vatican II have been quite orthodox. A bit of history for all you non-Catholics:

Since Vatican II there have been a lot of Catholics who didnít like Vatican II, who wanted to go back to the old Latin liturgy, do away with a lot of Vatican IIís reforms, etc. Many of these saw Ratzinger as ďtheir man,Ē and heralded his becoming Pope as their chance to get back to basics.

It hasnít happened. And it wonít happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
For example this paragraph on the subject from Catholic Apologetics International:
And thereís your problem. Youíre getting bad information. Catholic Apologetics International is one of the discontented groups. Reading that bit from them you posted makes it pretty clear since it is full of inaccuracies. Such as:


Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
"Pope Benedict will bring back, at least to a noticeable degree, the doctrinal integrity of the Church. There will be no more implicit teachings of universal salvation;
The Holy See has never ratified any implicit teachings of universal salvation. What you have here is a fringe group who wants the Pope to bring the hammer down on groups, priests, or commentators with which they do not agree. Youíll notice it hasnít happened. And Iím willing to predict it ainít gonna happen, because that isnít how the Popeís office works. This isnít the 13th century.

To be continuedÖ
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