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Old 02-13-2007, 11:36 AM
 
165 posts, read 286,545 times
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Linguistics is at the core of this debate. You obviously do not see it that way
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Old 02-13-2007, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,189 posts, read 24,920,738 times
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Although some of us are discussing linguistics and/or relevance among religions, the thread actually appears to me, and only the OP can explicate, that this was intended as a Islamic and/or Muslim bash.


Something I disapprove of!
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Old 02-13-2007, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Maine
16,528 posts, read 20,791,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Well, actually it was theological as well.
Answer this:
Is the God of the Bible a trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and is Jesus the Son, therefore God according to the Bible?
You know that Jews don't accept that either. Are you seriously claiming that Jews are worshiping some pagan god?

You'll have no argument from me if you state that Muslims and Christians and Jews definitely have their theological differences. No doubt. Some pretty vast theological differences. But to claim that Islam worships a pagan deity is false. You can claim that some of Islam's teachings are false, and you've got a debatable topic. But to try to write Islam off as a pagan religion is in complete variance with the facts.
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Old 02-13-2007, 11:45 AM
 
165 posts, read 286,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheroad View Post
Although some of us are discussing linguistics and/or relevance among religions, the thread actually appears to me, and only the OP can explicate, that this was intended as a Islamic and/or Muslim bash.


Something I disapprove of!
I fully agree, ontheroad. It's one of those insecure my god is better than your god threads.

All I do is present the linguistic evidence that Allah and El(oah) are one and the same.

"I believe that the Jesus is god and Muhammad was a heathen " is nought but an opinion, a simple belief, which anyone is entitled to believe.

Beliefs aren't fact.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,078,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elishan View Post
Linguistics is at the core of this debate. You obviously do not see it that way
Linguistics is part of the discussion, and it has to be of course, but it isn't the only factor. Language communicates hopefully the meaning and intent of a communication whether it's written or verbal, or in some other form. It can be used accurately or inaccurately depending upon the intent of the person involved, or as his or her competence allows.
We've gone over the origins of the word "Allah"...in detail. This has been addressed. We've gone over the evolution of the words Al-Ilah and Allah. It doesn't take Aramaic and Hebrew to research. It takes basic English and reading the arguments of learned experts who make this their field of study and come to conclusions based on their shared research and knowledge.

What I'm stating is that Allah is not the God of the Bible. I don't have to know Aramaic and Hebrew or Arab to see that the characteristics of God and Allah are mutually exclusive, therefore they cannot be one and the same. It isn't about language or linguistics past the researching of word origins.

I made a simple statement and asked simple questions. They still are not answered by the person I asked, and you don't seem to be in a position to debate this issue past superficial assumptions.

Clearly I'm speaking to the wrong person if I seek to debate the issue in depth without having irrelevant distractions thrown in to muddy the debate, especially when those distractions have been addressed.
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:54 PM
 
165 posts, read 286,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Linguistics is part of the discussion, and it has to be of course, but it isn't the only factor. Language communicates hopefully the meaning and intent of a communication whether it's written or verbal, or in some other form. It can be used accurately or inaccurately depending upon the intent of the person involved, or as his or her competence allows.
We've gone over the origins of the word "Allah"...in detail. This has been addressed. We've gone over the evolution of the words Al-Ilah and Allah. It doesn't take Aramaic and Hebrew to research. It takes basic English and reading the arguments of learned experts who make this their field of study and come to conclusions based on their shared research and knowledge.

What I'm stating is that Allah is not the God of the Bible. I don't have to know Aramaic and Hebrew or Arab to see that the characteristics of God and Allah are mutually exclusive, therefore they cannot be one and the same. It isn't about language or linguistics past the researching of word origins.

I made a simple statement and asked simple questions. They still are not answered by the person I asked, and you don't seem to be in a position to debate this issue past superficial assumptions.

Clearly I'm speaking to the wrong person if I seek to debate the issue in depth without having irrelevant distractions thrown in to muddy the debate, especially when those distractions have been addressed.
You're pretty smug and full of yourself, aren't you?
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Old 02-13-2007, 12:55 PM
 
165 posts, read 286,545 times
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You quote a couple of verses from the bible, parrot what you've read on the internet and you call that debate?
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,078,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
You know that Jews don't accept that either. Are you seriously claiming that Jews are worshiping some pagan god?

You'll have no argument from me if you state that Muslims and Christians and Jews definitely have their theological differences. No doubt. Some pretty vast theological differences. But to claim that Islam worships a pagan deity is false. You can claim that some of Islam's teachings are false, and you've got a debatable topic. But to try to write Islam off as a pagan religion is in complete variance with the facts.
I nowhere state that Jews are worshipping a pagan god. In fact, it's very clear that Christians and Jews worship the same God.
Torah:
And (Elohim) said. Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
& over all the earth. (Genesis 1:26)
Elohim made man, a being composed of a triunity --- body, soul and spirit, in the image of God;
and to make this more clear God reveals Himself in His plural form of Elohim and says, "Let us make man."

There are many Scripture verses which show clearly that God manifested Himself also as the Word by which He created heaven and earth and by which He leads and directs creation. He also manifested Himself as the Ruakh Hakodesh, the Holy Spirit, who inspired the prophets of God.
In Psalm 2 where the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, speaks through David and says:
'I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee.' (Psalm 2:7)

He appeared to Abraham as three men.
Genesis 18:2-33 describes the appearance and how the man in the middle is revealed as the Lord.
The 9th century Jewish historian Philo described and interpreted Genesis 18:2-33 and who the 'men' were below:
'...the one in the middle is the Father of the Universe, who in the sacred scriptures is called by his proper name, I am that I am; and the beings on each side are those most ancient powers which are always close to the living God, one of which is called his creative power, and the other his royal power'

In Islam, even the idea of Allah manifesting in a human form is abhorrent, yet it is clearly stated in the Jewish Torah. The concept of God as One, yet a trinity of One is not foreign to the Jewish faith.
And one thing you have to consider about the Jewish faith. It isn't as united as people tend to believe. Yes, it's clear that Jews are Jews and they have a unity in both ethnicity (disputed by some), and in shared traditions. The Jewish theology of the Hasidim is quite different from what you'll hear in a Reform Jewish Synagogue. But there is no fundamental schism between a trinitarian view of God and the Jewish Torah.

I have trouble reconciling the Jewish belief that God created Good and Evil or that Satan is a servant of God who is allowed to test man (like Job) as many Jews believe, but the characteristics of God, how He manifests, etc. are not opposed to the Christian concept of who God is.

But you Mark S. refuse to answer my question so far about why you believe Allah is Jehovah. Why?
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:11 PM
 
36 posts, read 89,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amavel View Post
If that's not evidence enough of a vengeful, gentile-killing, commanding God and his people, then I'm not sure what is. And, before you respond by saying, "well they were warned!" you should consider your own lack of true knowledge of the Quran and how you may or may not have taken the verses out of context.

I guess I don't know where you're going with this. You accused me of taking the Quran out of context, but then you quote the Bible's Old Testament as proof.

Again I will ask, please show me how I took the Quran suras out of context? The Answer is you can't.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,078,502 times
Reputation: 2000001303
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elishan View Post
You quote a couple of verses from the bible, parrot what you've read on the internet and you call that debate?
Elishan, you're falling lower and lower and if you actually were intellectual, you'd be feeling embarrassment at this point. Please don't expect to be addressed going forward as I've found your contributions thus far to be sorely lacking and unworthy of a serious debate.
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