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Old 02-13-2007, 01:21 PM
 
165 posts, read 286,339 times
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Beyond words, Mark, what else is there besides opinion and a good emotional rant?

I can read your contribution on a thousand googled pages.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,072,235 times
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Originally Posted by Elishan View Post

I can read your contribution on a thousand googled pages.
You know.... maybe you should do that. It may help you form an argument in the sense of getting you to think and then reason to a conclusion that might be helpful in the debate....?
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Maine
16,453 posts, read 20,750,685 times
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Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
IBut you Mark S. refuse to answer my question so far about why you believe Allah is Jehovah. Why?
Because I've read a fair amount of history and a whole lot of books on religion.

I feel like you're asking me to prove the roundness of circles. I really don't know how to prove to you what should be pretty obvious given even a brief reading of the history of Islam.

Your "proof" is a whole bunch of theological points emphasizing the different beliefs of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. I don't doubt that the three faiths have many differences. But they also have many similarities, and the fact that they share a common origin is as plain as the roundness of circles or the wetness of water.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Maine
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Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
What I'm stating is that Allah is not the God of the Bible.
God is bigger than the Bible, and on which is something that Christians, Jews, and Muslims can all agree.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,164,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
but taking parts to create a new faith doesn't mean that the resulting religion is the same as the ones borrowed from. Nor does logic demand that it is.
.
You argue that the resulting religion is different therefore the God cannot be the same. So using your logic Jews and Christians do not worship the same God since the resulting religion is different. You admitted it as such in your post under the Devil: Fact or Fiction when you stated:

“Christians tend to think that because we have the Torah in our Bible, we have most of our theology in common with the Jews. It isn't so. The differences are vast and make us completely different in our concepts of God, who He is, and the role and state of man.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
In fact, it's very clear that Christians and Jews worship the same God.
Really, under the Devil: Fact or Fiction you said they are “vast differences and make us completely different in our concepts of God”. So the Jewish God and Christian God are different because of the vast difference. Since there are vast differences between Islam and Christianity and you claim that it is therefore a different God then your logic demands that it be applied to Judaism also.

You’ve made it very clear that Islam does not recognize the triune version of God as Christians do, the Jews don’t recognize that concept like Christians either. So due to that vast difference they must be different Gods altogether.

Thanks MoMark for showing us the way with your inconsistent and selective interpretation.
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Old 02-13-2007, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,072,235 times
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Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Because I've read a fair amount of history and a whole lot of books on religion.

I feel like you're asking me to prove the roundness of circles. I really don't know how to prove to you what should be pretty obvious given even a brief reading of the history of Islam.

Your "proof" is a whole bunch of theological points emphasizing the different beliefs of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. I don't doubt that the three faiths have many differences. But they also have many similarities, and the fact that they share a common origin is as plain as the roundness of circles or the wetness of water.
Thank you for your answer. I agree they share many similarities. I was trying to point out that the nature of God in both religions is completely different which raises what I think is an obvious question...how can they be the same God?
I can't see how they can be... clearly. But, I understand now where your view is coming from and what it is based on. I appreciate that.
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,072,235 times
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Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
You argue that the resulting religion is different therefore the God cannot be the same. So using your logic Jews and Christians do not worship the same God since the resulting religion is different. You admitted it as such in your post under the Devil: Fact or Fiction when you stated:

“Christians tend to think that because we have the Torah in our Bible, we have most of our theology in common with the Jews. It isn't so. The differences are vast and make us completely different in our concepts of God, who He is, and the role and state of man.”



Really, under the Devil: Fact or Fiction you said they are “vast differences and make us completely different in our concepts of God”. So the Jewish God and Christian God are different because of the vast difference. Since there are vast differences between Islam and Christianity and you claim that it is therefore a different God then your logic demands that it be applied to Judaism also.

You’ve made it very clear that Islam does not recognize the triune version of God as Christians do, the Jews don’t recognize that concept like Christians either. So due to that vast difference they must be different Gods altogether.

Thanks MoMark for showing us the way with your inconsistent and selective interpretation.
Madicarus, I appreciate the cheap hatchet job. Great skill of yours. However, I pointed out that there are differences in how Jews and Christians view God. Jews for example by and large don't accept Jesus as Messiah, though to Christians He's the reason d'etre. Clearly a difference in perceiving God.
I've also made it clear straight from Jewish scriptures that the concept of Trinity in God is not alien to the Jewish faith and showed examples which are not diametrically opposed to Christian theology and help show that we worship the same God, yet you ignore that and choose to state they cannot then be worshipping the same God. I nowhere deny that Jews view God differently than Christians- in fact, as you pointed out, I emphasized some of those differences. I do show however that they worship the same God by outlining basic characteristics of God using examples from the Jewish Torah to support that claim.
You choose to ignore that.
You're another who speaks without thinking and states "facts" without authority or backing yourself up. It's a very weak debating style, almost as if you believe if you say "yes it is" often enough, it will be so.
There are differences between Judaism and Christianity. Tell me where I deny this?
I don't argue anywhere because the resulting religion is different that the God cannot be the same. I argued that just because a religion originated borrowing heavily from another doesn't make that resulting religion the same. I also argued that the god that came to be under Islam is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob and used the characteristics of both to show why they cannot be the same.

You have purposely convoluted your rebuttal. This leads me to assume you simply are unable to argue your point effectively, at least so far.
Have you yet noticed that all you've said is that Allah and Jehovah are the same, but you've offered nothing to support your statement. You haven't given any substantiated argument to support your statement, you simply repeat. They are the same. Is there a reason why you don't construct a proof?

Are you able to construct a proof and move beyond your hollow rhetoric? If so, I'd love to read it. So far all I've seen is unsubstantiated claims with nothing given to back them up. Are you capable of more?
Mark S. clearly stated where his/her view is coming from and says it clearly. Athough I don't agree with it, it's clearly stated.
I've stated clearly where mine comes from and gone to great lengths to support it, which, even if you disagree with it, you cannot justifiably say it isn't a proof. It clearly is with supporting facts. So you have a decision..I agree or I don't.

You offer nothing so far. Just rhetoric. There is no offering of facts or reasoned logic, biblical or koranical, to support your statement. There's not even a scholarly source - just you repeating yourself.
Come up with a proof and have the courage to put your thinking out there. I may not agree with it, but at least I'll be able to see where your views stem from and then be able to critically analyze it as I've allowed you to do with mine.
Save the hatchet for the wood pile.

Can you do that?

Last edited by MoMark; 02-13-2007 at 02:37 PM..
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Maine
16,453 posts, read 20,750,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
I was trying to point out that the nature of God in both religions is completely different which raises what I think is an obvious question...how can they be the same God?
There is only one God. The differences in our understanding of God means that our understanding is flawed, not that the object of our worship is different. Human beings are imperfect. God is flawless.

Are there elements within Islam that originated in paganism? Probably. But the same is true of Christianity and Judaism. (Christmas trees anyone?)

I see what you mean. I just don't think it was clear in the way your were stating it. Now we seem to have come round from opposite directions to meet somewhere in the middle.
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,164,848 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
Have you yet noticed that all you've said is that Allah and Jehovah are the same, but you've offered nothing to support your statement. You haven't given any substantiated argument to support your statement, you simply repeat. They are the same. Is there a reason why you don't construct a proof? ?
Actually if you’ve read my posts I’ve shown the similarities and the reasoning, however all you’ve done is try to debase the Quran by using the Bible. You havent shown any proof that they are a different God except for saying “resulting religion is different therefore different God”. Or you just show the history of a word and claim that as proof.

Your clearly are not open to the debate because you choose not to see the similarities and references in the Quran that shows it is the same God as the bible. The Muslims believe the Christians and Jews distorted the message of God, but you keep saying “differernt religion, must be a different God”. Very limited understanding you have in your statement.

I’ve shown proof and anyone with an open mind who doesn’t have an agenda to debase a competing religion can see it. There are plenty of posters here who see it as the same God, but an entirely different set of beleifs based on the message. It’s simple, no proof will satisfy your viewpoint because you cannot get beyond one arcane definition of a word and think, “different results, must be different God.” That’s been the basis of your whole argument and it is faulty. But you wont ever see it because you choose not to. Just because you choose not to understand it, it doesn’t make it false.
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:23 PM
 
165 posts, read 286,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
I've also made it clear straight from Jewish scriptures that the concept of Trinity in God is not alien to the Jewish faith
Where, and what do you mean by "alien"?
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