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Old 02-13-2007, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,072,235 times
Reputation: 2000001303

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Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
So his statements can be paraphrased as:
“Muslims don’t believe in the Christian concept of God so they are not the same God”; “Jews do not believe in the Christian concept of God but they are the same God”.
Yet he requests reasoned logic and doesn’t see the inconsistency of his own arguments.
Your paraphrasing skills are dreadful madicarus. Anyone reading my proof can see it's supported (except you), whether you agree with it or not. Why the Jews and Christians believe in the same God I made clear by showing how the attributes of God are also in the Torah and that they correspond to how Christians view God. So even though Jews view Him differently (such as often arguing that descriptions of body parts, hands, face, etc. are allegorical), the Christian concept of God is not alien to them nor does it dispute the monotheistic view of God. I used examples of the Godhead being a Trinity in Exodus among others to make that point. I also pointed to the Jewish scholar from the 9th century Philo who identified the three 'men' who appeared to Abraham as God (Father of the Universe) and what he called the two companions, which, if you studied up on biblical literature from the Torah you'd recognize as names associated with God appearing elsewhere in the Torah.

I've also explained why the attributes of the Islamic god make it impossible for that god to be Yahweh. I even showed how the Koran says that anyone who proclaims that God has a Son or is a Father is blasphemous and a pervert! You've got a challenge to make your point when the Koran, supposedly revealed word to Muhammed, states that the attributes of the God Yahweh are a perversion!!! Either that or your Islamic god is suffering from multiple personality disorder where he's sonless and not the father with a salvation plan for Muslims, then turns cheek like a divine Sybil and proclaims He's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Bible and says that anyone who denies His Son is a liar? Know any divine counselors? I guess you forgot that post where I also show that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob addressed the issue directly and claims that anyone who denies the Christ is a liar. Islam denies the Christ...and denies that Allah can appear in human form, though Jehovah clearly did mulitiple times in the Torah.... but don't let that small hiccough get in your way! Oh well, it's more convenient to ignore those posts and stick to superficial and inaccurate paraphrasing because for whatever reason, you wish to argue your point without building a proof and refuse to acknowledge the evidence to the contrary, even if you don't agree with it!!!
I could make superficial skim paraphrases of your statements here too. The easiest to summarize would be:
"Allah is the God of the Bible because I say so. End of story".

You clearly don't agree with my statement, but you're unable to argue your case. Instead you take the effort to proclaim that a Wikipedia source states that Muslims believe Allah is the same God as Jehovah... although this Muslim claim was never on board as a topic of debate as no one disputed that Muslims claim that!!! Your paper would have been sent back with the words "redo and stay on topic" if this had been a college paper. And rightly so. You have provided no compelling documentation that makes arguing the case that Allah is Jehovah is true. You offer no counter to the glaring problems which making that assumption or statement brings. Zero, zip, nada. I find that telling...

Last edited by MoMark; 02-13-2007 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Topeka, KS
1,560 posts, read 6,562,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
We wonder how it gets all mixed up!! Translations are the root of all evil!!
And all this time I thought it was MTV....
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:29 AM
 
1,393 posts, read 921,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inroad View Post
In modern times, I would reckon they are only converting the willing!
Are you serious!! Listen to the Christian converts and read how you leave the religion most have moved to the states or England. One must die to leave their family respect. If you are an American Muslim you might have a chance. They usually move far away or keep it secret this is not a join on your willingness religion!!
These people have babies to give back to Allah what kind of God would ask this of you. The God of the Bible didnt' even have Abraham kill Issac. Abraham was showing God his love and faithfulness and God reward him back with his love and protection. These people get 72 virgins just wonder what they do when their virgins are no longer virgins!!
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,189 posts, read 24,906,244 times
Reputation: 3840
Yes, I think conversion to Christianity is more than frowned up, but I was talking about converts to Islam not the other way around.

I believe many in the States have converted to Islam. I noticed it in particular when I lived in NYC. Many of the Muslims in the neighbourhoods I visited were not born into the faith but were converted from one of several Christian denominations.

It apparently has great appeal for those that make that choice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
Are you serious!! Listen to the Christian converts and read how you leave the religion most have moved to the states or England. One must die to leave their family respect. If you are an American Muslim you might have a chance. They usually move far away or keep it secret this is not a join on your willingness religion!!
These people have babies to give back to Allah what kind of God would ask this of you. The God of the Bible didnt' even have Abraham kill Issac. Abraham was showing God his love and faithfulness and God reward him back with his love and protection. These people get 72 virgins just wonder what they do when their virgins are no longer virgins!!
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,072,235 times
Reputation: 2000001303
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
These people get 72 virgins just wonder what they do when their virgins are no longer virgins!!
Didn't you know wildberries? In Allah's paradise, viagra grows on special Viagra trees and the virgins automatically regrow their hymens after each use. It's the deluxe package.

The not so lucky Paradise winners get 72 Helen Thomas's lying on unmade divans with "come hither" looks and are "one-use" events.
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:44 AM
 
1,393 posts, read 921,894 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amavel View Post
The entire point of the original post was to diminish Islam, Muslims, and the Quran because they're basically murderers, adulterers, etc, and your means of providing "proof" was taking random suras that denote any sort of death or destruction.

I was clearly mocking your attempts to degrade any ENTIRE PEOPLE by taking controversial verses from the OT and applying them to my own assumption that Jews and Christians must similarly be murderers out to kill all gentiles/infidels. It seems as though you did not choose to consider that aspect, because only your religion is true because God and his Bible said so, right?

So what is your response to the amount of killing and destruction commanded by God in the Old Testament? How is your god not considered merciless and Christians not murderers or barbarians?
The ones that were killed were either disobedient or were in the way of making the line of David pure from which, Jesus came from. Or where taking Israel to destruction. If you read the whole books with understanding you will see HE wasn't a killing God. People really need to know what kind of God is in Heaven some have got it all wrong and just think He is this power hungry and a unloving God.
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:46 AM
 
1,393 posts, read 921,894 times
Reputation: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
Well if weíre going to use websites to support statements then here is something from Wikipedia under Islam:

ďMuslims consider Allāh to be the same deity as that worshipped by Christians and Jews, the God of Abraham. Allāh is also used by Arab speaking Christian and Jewish people to refer to God as they worship him..Ē

Looks like there is support that it is the same God. Let me guess though, for some, if it supports their belief, they will claim it as a valid source but if it doesnít support their belief, they are going to make some wild claim that it is not valid source document.
Seems to me Allah calls to kill all non-Muslims. God has not called us to kill all non-believers!!!
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Old 02-14-2007, 02:42 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,164,848 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoMark View Post
No one claimed that the MUSLIMS don't consider Allah to be the God of the Bible!!! The claim has been by Christians that Allah is not the God of the Bible, one of whom is me.
Are you aware then of the differences in the arguments we have. My claims and supporting statements, which you prefer to ignore, is that Muslims consider Allah (God) of the Quran to be the same God that is referenced in the bible. However they consider Jews and Christians as distorting the message of God, a part of that message is the concept of God and the role of Jesus.

Do you agree with that above statement? Yes or no? Please, no verbose replies. Either you agree or disagree.

Your argument is that from a Christian perspective, they are not the same God. An entirely different argument as Iím not arguing from a Christian perspective to tell them what to believe. Iím not asking Christians to accept Allah (God) as the same God as the one they believe in the bible, but that from a Muslimís perspective they are the same, but different set of beliefs based on the message.
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Old 02-14-2007, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 12,072,235 times
Reputation: 2000001303
Quote:
Originally Posted by madicarus2000 View Post
Are you aware then of the differences in the arguments we have. My claims and supporting statements, which you prefer to ignore, is that Muslims consider Allah (God) of the Quran to be the same God that is referenced in the bible. However they consider Jews and Christians as distorting the message of God, a part of that message is the concept of God and the role of Jesus.

Do you agree with that above statement? Yes or no? Please, no verbose replies. Either you agree or disagree.

Your argument is that from a Christian perspective, they are not the same God. An entirely different argument as Iím not arguing from a Christian perspective to tell them what to believe. Iím not asking Christians to accept Allah (God) as the same God as the one they believe in the bible, but that from a Muslimís perspective they are the same, but different set of beliefs based on the message.
This posting is refreshing from you. Yes, I can absolutely agree that most or a majority of Muslims believe that their god is the God of the Bible. I've never claimed that that isn't the case from a Muslim perspective. It would be interesting however to research further and see if there is dissenting opinion within the Islamic faith.
It's interesting that the Catholic church through Vatican II also claims that Muslims and "Christians" worship the same god.
Obviously... I'm not a Catholic! And I think many Catholics aren't even aware of the debate or even this reality within Catholic theology. The new Pope is apparently trying to get that rooted out, just like he's downplaying the concept of limbo/purgatory and the forgiveness of sin after death that was introduced by the Church in the Middle Ages....I doubt he'll succeed.
In any event, Yep, it seems most or a majority of Muslims believe that Allah is the same god as Jehovah.
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Old 02-14-2007, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Small patch of terra firma
1,275 posts, read 2,164,848 times
Reputation: 536
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildberries61 View Post
Seems to me Allah calls to kill all non-Muslims. God has not called us to kill all non-believers!!!
Because that is how you choose to interpret the message. Just like when you take a verse from the bible and choose to interpret it literally or metaphorically.
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