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Old 09-11-2014, 07:14 PM
 
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The Story of Umm Qirfa

It is conviently easy for a muslim to say, we don't follow that, which may be true, however it is Islam at it's core, with the original writings.
These writings are trying to be hidden from the Kaffie, but are already translated into a doxen languages.

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Umm Qirfa was an old Arab woman contemporaneous to Muhammad, the prophet of Islam. She belonged to a pagan tribe named Banu Fazara at Wadi Al-Qurra. This old woman who was also a chief of her clan was brutally killed when Muhammad and his followers raided her tribe and overpowered them. The incident took place almost six years after Muhammad’s Hijra (هِجْرَة Migration) to Medina in 622 AD.
Ibn Ishaq, the first authentic biographer of Muhammad gives us the details in his Sirat Rasul Allah:
Zayd B. Haritha’s raid on Banu Fazara and the Death of Umm Qirfa

Zayd also raided Wadi-l-Qurra where he met Banu Fazara and some of his companions were killed; he himself carried wounded from the field. Ward b. Amr b. Madash one of B. Sad b. Hudhayl was killed by one of B. Badr whose name Sa’d b. Hudhaym. When Zayd came he swore that he would use no ablution until he raided B. Fazara; and when he recovered from his wounds the apostle sent him against them with a force. He fought them in Wadi-al-Qura and killed some of them. Qays b. al-Musahhar al-Yamuri killed Mas’ada b. Hakama b. Malik b. Hudhayfa b. Badr and Umm Qirfa Fatima was taken prisoner. She was a very old woman, wife of Malik. Her daughter and Abdulla b. Mas’ada were also taken. Zaid ordered Qays b al-Musahhar to kill Umm Qirfa and he killed her cruelly.
Ibn Ishaq 980

“And he killed her cruelly”. The cruel method used by the holy warriors of Muhammad to kill Umm Qirfa is described in Al-Tabari:
“By putting a rope into her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two....”[SIZE=2][1][/SIZE]
Allah’s Messenger sent Zayd to Wadi Qura, where he encountered the Banu Fazarah. Some of his Companions were killed, and Zayd was carried away wounded. Ward was slain by the Banu Badr. When Zayd returned, he vowed that no washing should touch his head until he had raided the Fazarah. After he recovered, Muhammad sent him with an army against the Fazarah settlement. He met them in Qura and inflicted casualties on them and took Umm Qirfah prisoner. He also took one of Umm’s daughters and Abdallah bin Mas’adah prisoner. Zyad bin Harithah ordered Qays to kill Umm, and he killed her cruelly. He tied each of her legs with a rope and tied the ropes to two camels, and they split her in two.
Tabari Vol.8:Page.96


Ibn Ishaq continues:
Then they brought Umm Qirfa’s daughter and Mas’ada’s son to the apostle. The daughter of Umm Qirfa belonged to Salama b. Amr b. al-Akwa who had taken her. She held a position of honor among her people, and the Arabs used to say, “Had you been more powerful than Umm Qirfa you could have done no more”. Salama asked the apostle to let him have her and he gave her to him and he presented her to his uncle Hazn b. Abu Wahb and she bare him Abdul-Rahman . Hazn.
Ibn Ishaq 980

As can be seen in Ibn Ishaq, Umm Qirfa held a high position among her people, perhaps more like Khadijah bint Khuwailid, Muhammad’s first wife. “No man or woman with more power could have done any more than Umm Qirfa” as quoted by Ibn Ishaq was what Arabs used to say then. What was the reason behind Muhammad and his 'holy' warriors killing such a respected and high ranking old woman in one of the most brutal ways imaginable?
The answer is simple; Muhammad could not tolerate a woman enjoying a leadership role in any society, this much about his personal views towards women is made clear in Sahih Bukhari 9:88:219.[SIZE=2][2][/SIZE] This old woman became a target for this very reason and as some sources attest, Muhammad had ordered his people to display the old woman’s decapitated head throughout the streets of Medina.[SIZE=2][3][/SIZE] This was meant as a lesson to the Arabs and their forthcoming generations that a woman should never hold a high position in society.
Now, let us see whether the horrifying account of the murder of Umm Qirfa is authentic or a mere fabrication as many Muslim apologists claim. The first to report this murder was Ibn Ishaq followed by Tabari, two historians which Muslims sometimes view with suspicion when it casts Muhammad in a negative light. The highly edited version of Ibn Ishaq (by Ibn Hisham) does contain the mention of the murder but not the brutal way in which she was killed. It is Tabari who exposed the brutality of her killing. And not surprisingly, Sahih sources (Bukhari and Muslim) are mute in regards to the killing of Umm Qirfa. Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri, a modern day biographer of Prophet Muhammad has also pointed out the Umm Qirfa incident in his work “The Sealed Nectar”. This book is highly regarded among the worlds Muslims and its Arabic version was awarded first prize by the Muslim World League, at the first Islamic Conference on Seerah, following a worldwide competition for a book on the Sirah Rasul Allah (life of Muhammad) in 1979.
An expedition led by Abu Bakr As-Siddiq or Zaid bin Haritha was despatched to Wadi Al-Qura in Ramadan 6 Hijri after Fazara sept had made an attempt at the Prophet’s life. Following the morning prayer, the detachment was given orders to raid the enemy. Some of them were killed and others captured. Amongst the captives, were Umm Qirfa and her beautiful daughter, who was sent to Makkah as a ransom for the release of some Muslim prisoners there. Umm Qirfa’s attempts at the Prophet’s life recoiled on her, and the thirty horsemen she had gathered and sustained to implement her evil scheme were all killed.
Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri/ The Sealed Nectar: Page 152

The account found in “The Sealed Nectar” is derived from a Sahih Muslim Hadith in regards to the incident. Though somewhat descriptive, the Sahih Muslim Hadith does not mention the fate of Umm Qirfa. A case of selective ignorance on the Hadith compiler’s part since the horrible killing puts Islam’s credibility at stake.
Those who conveniently cast doubt on Ibn Ishaq and Tabari do not doubt the authenticity of Sahih Muslim Hadiths. And for the same reason not many Muslim apologists can deny the validity of the accounts of the raid as given by Ibn Ishaq and Tabari if they are found to be similar. An evaluation of the Sahih Muslim hadith is therefore necessary to confirm whether the account (of the killing of Umm Qirfa) is factual or not:
It has been narrated on the authority of Salama (b. al-Akwa') who said: We fought against the Fazara and Abu Bakr was the commander over us. He had been appointed by the Messenger of Allah. When we were only at an hour's distance from the water of the enemy, Abu Bakr ordered us to attack. We made a halt during the last part of the night to rest and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along. Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat. With her was her daughter who was one of the prettiest girls in Arabia. I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah met me in the street and said: Give me that girl, O Salama. I said: Messenger of Allah, she has fascinated me. I had not yet disrobed her. When on the next day, the Messenger of Allah again met me in the street, he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah, I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca.
Sahih Muslim 19:4345

There is slight variation in the Sahih Muslim account, but this is to be expected. We see in the above hadith, Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam leading the raid in place of Zaid bin Harith, the person we find in Ibn Ishaq and Tabari. Leaving that aside, the account is extremely accurate, as a raid on Banu Fazara had indeed taken place on the order of Muhammad. Sahih Muslim attests to its authenticity. There was also an old woman among the raided tribe, as Sahih Muslim hadith testifies “Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat”. As we read in Sahih Muslim, this woman, her daughter and many others were fleeing the raid and had they reached a nearby mountain, their lives would have been spared but an arrow from Salama bin Al-Akwa (one of the Muslim raiders) decided their fate. The woman was unable to escape with her daughter and all were taken as captives. Falling silent on the fate of the old woman who tried to escape, Imam Muslim instead reports what happened to her daughter. It was a horrid fate that awaited the beautiful girl as Muhammad bought her from the person who possessed her and surrendered the ill-fated as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners in Mecca.
So, what happened to the mother of this daughter who also had been taken as prisoner? Sahih sources stay mute on the old woman’s fate, so there has to be an alternative account to rely on for those who seek the truth. We have two historians reporting she had been killed by the followers of Muhammad. If Muslims accept the account given in Sahih Muslim, they are in no position to reject the killing of Umm Qirfa since there is no logical reason to dismiss the murder accounts found in Ibn Ishaq and Tabari as the remainder of the accounts given by them match that which has been given by the authentic sources.
Sahih Muslim hadith brings up the fact there was an old woman among the captives of Banu Fazara. Her daughter was sold by Muhammad into slavery. This much is clear, But what happened to the mother of the unfortunate girl? Ibn Ishaq and Tabari answer that question; a noble woman of high rank who did nothing wrong other than adhere to her traditional beliefs had been brutally killed by Islam’s holy warriors.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Dangling from a mooses antlers
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Wow!! And his guy was supposed to be "God's Messenger"?
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Old 09-11-2014, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Do we even know that is what was written by Ishaq?

Hisham copied edited and revised the only copy of what Ishaq wrote. In Turn Taburi did the samy with Hisham's work and that is what we have as Isgaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" While it is the oldest Biography we have of Muhammad(saws) We have no verification all of it is true.

Another view of what happened

Quote:
Facts and the Lies!

Now this clarifies certain points.

1- It was the Tribe of Fazara, which was headed by Umm Qirfa, who first attacked Muslims who were merely on trading journey.

2- They killed Muslims and took their merchandise.

3- Muslims made a counter attack to punish the trigger-happy tribe.

4- There is no authentic report whether Holy Prophet (PBUH) ordered her killing specifically. Infact it was Zaid bin Harith (RA) who ordered her killing as she was, being the leader of the tribe, responsible for all that happened. And we just read Zaid himself had seen their aggression and merely survived it.

5- Her killing was perfectly justified as she led her tribe to commit violence against Muslims. She was no innocent a woman and was rather a hostile enemy.

6- The manner she was killed was not ordained by the Prophet (PBUH) but was carried on by the people who had undergone the terror practiced by her men. It was a reaction by such people; nevertheless it goes against the mannerism taught by Islam. And though such a behavior is deplorable, it is Umm Qirfa herself who is to be held responsible for such a reaction.

7- No authentic report makes any mention of her head being brought to the Prophet (PBUH) and then paraded in the streets of Medina. This is a myth and a lie! The books these slanderers produce as a reference are no authority as they are not written by trustworthy people and no authentic report in any of the classical books gives even a hint to such a happening.
SOURCE
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Old 09-12-2014, 07:41 AM
 
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I an curious of your source for the attacks on the muslims.


The all to typical excuse is they anticipated treachery, or broke a treaty, but these supposed treatys were set up when muhammed raided the villages and demanded his Jizya money.

If we look at all the raids, they were either going after prey, booty, or they were mad at someone.

Only one time muhammed fought real soldiers, and lost 7000 men, but this was after he had been raiding for years, and they retaliated.


And calling for an authentic report, is pretty weak.

Nothing in all of the Qur'an and hadieths can be considered authentic, but it is the only source for these, and this particular one is mentioned a few times by different people.

This particular one falls in line with his pattern of conduct, so often displayed.
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Old 09-12-2014, 07:53 AM
 
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The main concern with ishaq'a work is that 4/5 ths of it, was discarded because of "matters that would distress people",

Among them
What did survive would be illegal in a pornographic movie.
A lot of rapes, and graphic murders.
He had sex with a 9 year old girl at 53.
He lusted after a two year old, at 53.
He is accused of having sex with a dead woman.


And this is the only documentation of Islam for the first 200 years
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Old 09-12-2014, 07:55 AM
 
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If we consider the father of a girl captive, he took for a wife.


Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_a49 View Post
I an curious of your source for the attacks on the muslims.


The all to typical excuse is they anticipated treachery, or broke a treaty, but these supposed treatys were set up when muhammed raided the villages and demanded his Jizya money.

If we look at all the raids, they were either going after prey, booty, or they were mad at someone.

Only one time muhammed fought real soldiers, and lost 7000 men, but this was after he had been raiding for years, and they retaliated.


And calling for an authentic report, is pretty weak.

Nothing in all of the Qur'an and hadieths can be considered authentic, but it is the only source for these, and this particular one is mentioned a few times by different people.

This particular one falls in line with his pattern of conduct, so often displayed.
The Ahadith do paint a different picture of Muhammad(saws) than what you relate.

It will come down to personal opinions. There is no solid physical proof for much of anything regarding early Islam and Muhammad(saws)

I accept the opinion that people living during the time of Muhammad(saws) did make notes or told told orally things that they witnessed about Muhannad(saws) and that these observations remained within the families either as written notes or oral traditions. I do believe there were some early attempts to collect all of these into a single compilation but was not accomplished to a large degree until Bukhari.

I do believe Bukhari did travel for much of his life and did collect a vast collection of notes and did categorize about 18,000 of those that he was able to trace the family generations back to the original narrator and compiled those into 93 books. Setting the basics for the categorizing of Ahadith

I am convinced that the Authenticate Hadith (those that the name of the original witness has been verified through family linage) and of those the ones with high reliability (Meaning more than one witness reported the same thing) give the most accurate History of Muhammad(saws)

The Ahadith that do carry high levels of Authenticity and reliability do not support everything in Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah"

There are countless Ahadith with a low level of authenticity (Meaning there is no family linkage showing the named witness actually lived at the time of Muhammad(saws) or of low reliability meaning there is only one named witness with no others relating the same thing.

I believe Ishaq, Taburi and Hisham may have used some of those hadith to fill in the blank spots in the Sirat.
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:35 AM
 
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Here again you are using the muslim explanation that has been proven wrong, over and over.

All of the hadieths with insnads are the most suspect.

The insnads, of these immaginary people were written the same time as the Hadieth itself.
There is no traceable history.

As I pointed out, the lineage of Muhammed himself, is pure fabrication.

If they can do it with his, and claim it as true, you know they can, and will, do it with anyone.
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:38 AM
 
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And the Hadith paint the exact same picture I am presenting.

This is one of the reasons I present it.

In 80% of the writings of Muhammed, he is robbing, raping, or killing someone.
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:40 AM
 
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As I said, we cannot accept all as factual in every detail, but we can present the most important part.

You have in the messenger a beautiful pattern of conduct to follow. (Qur'an)

It is these writings that spawn all the Islamic terror of today.
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