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Old 11-19-2008, 03:28 PM
 
Location: England
307 posts, read 440,155 times
Reputation: 95

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJLethal View Post
If you throw out the Old Testament, why do you believe the New Testament? It was written that Jesus was onboard with all things Old Testament:

Matthew 5: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

If Old Testament stoning was good enough for him, why not for you?
Did I say I reject the OT? There is a world of difference between my recoiling at the capital punishment of stoning and throwing out all that is in that book.

Many believers still disagree as to whether Jesus is God or the Son of God. I was raised to believe the former but, through other influences, ended up believing the latter. Having thrown off those influences (recently) I now don't know what I believe. However, as I said, we are talking of times long gone when stoning was the norm, like crucifixion later (agonising death). Here we were beheading, or hanging, drawing and quartering criminals in the 17th century. You (and us) were burning unfortunates at the stake. It wouldn't go down very well today. It was the punishments of the time, and they were people of their time.
So, I have as much right as you to condemn the stoning, so beloved of Islam. To my 21st century eyes the OT stonings are distasteful....but I don't think we have a right to sit in judgement. For all the reasons I have written above. Try to get a sense of proportion and context, as that's the only way to see it ( stoning) in its correct setting. In the ancient past.
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:31 PM
 
Location: UK.
348 posts, read 459,031 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizabeth7 View Post
Did I say I reject the OT? There is a world of difference between my recoiling at the capital punishment of stoning and throwing out all that is in that book.

Many believers still disagree as to whether Jesus is God or the Son of God. I was raised to believe the former but, through other influences, ended up believing the latter. Having thrown off those influences (recently) I now don't know what I believe. However, as I said, we are talking of times long gone when stoning was the norm, like crucifixion later (agonising death). Here we were beheading, or hanging, drawing and quartering criminals in the 17th century. You (and us) were burning unfortunates at the stake. It wouldn't go down very well today. It was the punishments of the time, and they were people of their time.
So, I have as much right as you to condemn the stoning, so beloved of Islam. To my 21st century eyes the OT stonings are distasteful....but I don't think we have a right to sit in judgement. For all the reasons I have written above. Try to get a sense of proportion and context, as that's the only way to see it ( stoning) in its correct setting. In the ancient past.
Jesus was walking along quite happily one day when he came across a stoning about to take place.

Jesus was horrified, and said so. "He who is without sin - cast the first stone" he added, thinking to defuse the situation. He'd just turned to walk away when suddenly 'THWACK' - and the poor victim was flat on the ground, senseless, next to a big sharp stone.

Exasperated, Jesus glared at the culprit, who was looking smug...

"MOTHER", he said, "SOMETIMES YOU P**S ME RIGHT OFF" ....
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Old 11-19-2008, 06:49 PM
 
418 posts, read 649,679 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizabeth7 View Post
Did I say I reject the OT? There is a world of difference between my recoiling at the capital punishment of stoning and throwing out all that is in that book.

Many believers still disagree as to whether Jesus is God or the Son of God. I was raised to believe the former but, through other influences, ended up believing the latter. Having thrown off those influences (recently) I now don't know what I believe. However, as I said, we are talking of times long gone when stoning was the norm, like crucifixion later (agonising death). Here we were beheading, or hanging, drawing and quartering criminals in the 17th century. You (and us) were burning unfortunates at the stake. It wouldn't go down very well today. It was the punishments of the time, and they were people of their time.
So, I have as much right as you to condemn the stoning, so beloved of Islam. To my 21st century eyes the OT stonings are distasteful....but I don't think we have a right to sit in judgement. For all the reasons I have written above. Try to get a sense of proportion and context, as that's the only way to see it ( stoning) in its correct setting. In the ancient past.
I never justify wrongdoing against another person whatever the norm is. (I'll give examples from the USA.) Recently it's denying equal rights to gays and lesbians. Before it was segregation of blacks. Before that it was putting Japanese Americans in concentration camps. Before that it was denying women equal rights. Before that it was slavery of Africans. Before that it was genocide of Native Americans. And so on...(My apologies if I've left anyone out.)

It was the norm back then and people stood against it. Eventually the norm was replaced. We will see that soon with granting the gay and lesbian community equal rights.

So no, if I was alive, I would never stand for stoning, burning at the stake, etc. (I disagree with Capital Punishment even now.)
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:10 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
What’s the point elwill? If I post some of these sites, then you’ll say they are extremist and don’t represent Islam. The facts are in front of you. They are teaching kids to hate via textbooks, Korans and cartoons, they are teaching them to hate in the Middle East and in the West, that’s a FACT.
christian arab , we have nothing to hide
quran and Hadeeth and piography of mohammed (pbuh) and and islamic books and sites are free in the internet to know the teaching of islam

why you always quote your views , from nonmuslims , arn't you smart enough to make your researches from islamic sites itself , hence i can give you pardons for your idea regarding to islam

Quote:
And this is the type of thinking that is creating radicals. I mean, if someone is attending Friday prayers from childhood and hears these words that “non Muslims are cursed by Allah, and wrath of Allah will be upon them”, then go home watch anti Christian/Jewish cartoons, then go to school and read anti Christian/Jewish textbooks. They are programmed to HATE all non-Muslims, period.
it's very good discribtion for what happenes by media in the west against islam and muslims , the result is you , you are programmed to hate islam .

anyway i myself attending Friday prayers from childhood and hears this words " that non_muslims will be cursed by allah in the judgement day" , but we hears most about punishments of God for unrightious muslims ( it's more important for us )
then i go home , there's no insulting or anti_christian cartoons in muslims country , because we respect the other relegions , and it's not allowed in islam for muslims to insult or show disrespect for them

by the way i live in front of church , most of my neighbour are christians , and i have many christians friends , they know that i'm believe that wrath of God will be on them in hearafter , they either believe in the same thing upon me , though this beliefs has nothing to do with respecting each other and live with each other peacely without hateness
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:38 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
You know, elwill, your laws don't punish crime - THEY ARE THE CRIME...
what about secular laws , didn't they made wrost crimes , as unjust wars for example

Quote:
How dare you stand up and criticise the infinately more humane laws of the western world, imperfect as they may be? - If you can justify stoning and mutilating and hanging people for relatively victimless 'crimes' - you prove that you are capable of anything, no matter how unjust and barbaric. Any god who inspire you to behave like this is much closer being a destructive devil, masquerading as god of love.
what about Yehew ? didn't he inspire jews to behave like this either ?
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:49 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizabeth7 View Post
You know very well I don't defend stoning in the Hebrew Scriptures. I said as much in another thread. We are talking about events three thousand years ago that today sound barbaric. That is why I challenged elwill. Stoning someone to death in the 21st century is a stain on Islam.
thousand years ago there were somthing called sword , why God inspired them to stonning ?
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Old 11-20-2008, 03:36 AM
 
787 posts, read 1,546,250 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
what about secular laws , didn't they made wrost crimes , as unjust wars for example
you're twisting the statement around. Secular laws don't lead to war, that is politics.

Quote:
thousand years ago there were somthing called sword , why God inspired them to stonning ?
I, and I am willing to guess many others also, have no interest in a God who tells its people to stone one another.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:55 AM
 
Location: UK.
348 posts, read 459,031 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
what about secular laws , didn't they made wrost crimes , as unjust wars for example ...

what about Yehew ? didn't he inspire jews to behave like this either ?
War has always been an unfortunate feature of human aggression throughout history, we are just aggressive as a species, but I, for one, am not proud of that, and I condemn ALL wars unreservedly.

What about Yahweh, you ask? - Good question: it allows me to state my belief that Allah and Yahweh are, in fact, one and the same - the god of Abraham and Isaac and of Ishmael under a different name only. So no, it's hardly surprising that the ancient deity of a desert people some 3000 years ago, who clearly advocated stoning, and other barbarities, should have had the same influence on both Judaism (and hence Christianity) and Islam.

Therefore, as you see, I'm not singling out your faith for condemnation, since I wholeheartedly condemn the old testament, and its Yahweh, or Jehovah, in exactly the same way.

What infuriates me though, is that whilst very few, if any, modern day Judeo-Christians would even contemplate stoning to death as a punishment, sharia law at its most extreme not only supports such blood-thirstiness, along with public beheadings and hangings, but actually allows these things to be carried out.

How can you, as a sentient human being, begin to approve of this? Can your mindset be so utterly different to my western mentality? I just fail to understand who you are, or how your mind works. You, I take it, would derive some ghastly contentment from seeing a defenceless woman beheaded, as a public spectacle, or to witness, as shown recently on the net, the hanging of two teenaged Iranian boys for a trivial sexual 'offence' ? How could your heart not break to see these two sobbing youngsters being roughly strung up to die just as their lives were beginning? One of the boys hadn't even grown into his shoes, which were left dangling on his feet as he choked to death on the gallows.

When I see such cruelty, I want to be physically sick, and my outrage and anger refuse to go away. Like John, I find capital punishment repulsive, and I'm proud to say that here in the UK it is not sanctioned by law. British society hasn't collapsed since its abolition either, rather, the rates for serious crime continue to fall.

How, then, can you, elwill, calmly inform us on this civilised forum that such things are required by your god?

I'm not interested in your justification, to be frank - it would only increase my anger. But you must realise that when you post such views, you only display your god in the worst possible, most sadistic light. I'm sure you do have a more thoughtful side to your nature, even if it is smothered, and I can only hope that some day soon you will wake up to the sheer wickedness of what you now find so admirable.

Brian.

Last edited by brianrees; 11-20-2008 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:14 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
War has always been an unfortunate feature of human aggression throughout history, we are just aggressive as a species, but I, for one, am not proud of that, and I condemn ALL wars unreservedly.

What about Yahweh, you ask? - Good question: it allows me to state my belief that Allah and Yahweh are, in fact, one and the same - the god of Abraham and Isaac and of Ishmael under a different name only. So no, it's hardly surprising that the ancient deity of a desert people some 3000 years ago, who clearly advocated stoning, and other barbarities, should have had the same influence on both Judaism (and hence Christianity) and Islam.

Therefore, as you see, I'm not singling out your faith for condemnation, since I wholeheartedly condemn the old testament, and its Yahweh, or Jehovah, in exactly the same way.

What infuriates me though, is that whilst very few, if any, modern day Judeo-Christians would even contemplate stoning to death as a punishment, sharia law at its most extreme not only supports such blood-thirstiness, along with public beheadings and hangings, but actually allows these things to be carried out.

How can you, as a sentient human being, begin to approve of this? Can your mindset be so utterly different to my western mentality? I just fail to understand who you are, or how your mind works. You, I take it, would derive some ghastly contentment from seeing a defenceless woman beheaded, as a public spectacle, or to witness, as shown recently on the net, the hanging of two teenaged Iranian boys for a trivial sexual 'offence' ? How could your heart not break to see these two sobbing youngsters being roughly strung up to die just as their lives were beginning? One of the boys hadn't even grown into his shoes, which were left dangling on his feet as he choked to death on the gallows.

When I see such cruelty, I want to be physically sick, and my outrage and anger refuse to go away. Like John, I find capital punishment repulsive, and I'm proud to say that here in the UK it is not sanctioned by law. British society hasn't collapsed since its abolition either, rather, the rates for serious crime continue to fall.

How, then, can you, elwill, calmly inform us on this civilised forum that such things are required by your god?

I'm not interested in your justification, to be frank - it would only increase my anger. But you must realise that when you post such views, you only display your god in the worst possible, most sadistic light. I'm sure you do have a more thoughtful side to your nature, even if it is smothered, and I can only hope that some day soon you will wake up to the sheer wickedness of what you now find so admirable.

Brian.
i can understand your confusion about me , i will try as posible as i can to cover my view as whole

- firstly , i can feel how far stonning is very very taugh punishment and completely unacceptable and very barbaric

- you asked me why i defend it ? well , it dosn't mean that i like it , the punishment is very taugh to accept , i agree with you
it's just if i accepted islam as a relegion , so i accept it as whole , i can't change it according to my desire or according to 21st century

- the most important point i need from you to understand is that what happened with raped victim is completely against islam and against shariah , the same with what happened with those 2 boys is agianst islam and against shariah , children not punished under shariah laws .
that's why i hope from bottom of my heart that you don't judge on relegion from news , you should to ask scholars of islam about such behaviours .

in the last , you should to know that stonning in islam is different than stonning in OT
in islam there is just 2 situation where you can stonned somebody
1- rape crime , the rapist should be stonned to death if it's proofed that he did ( i think it dosn't need 4 witness ) , but the victim can forgave him if she want

2- married male or female commit adultery without shame in public places
as for example adultery in beach or in the streets or party or porno movies . under shariah it limited with 4 witnesses against them
(allah didn't want from islamic communities to be sinfull society , it's acceptable to find sinfull ones , not sinfull society )

for the first situation , i think that the rapist not deserve any mercy except from the victim

for the second situation , what do you think the probability of such crime may happens , that married man or woman commit adultery in public within islamic community , beside they know that it will made them subjected to stonned to death

why anyhuman being will make such crime in public if he can make it secretly without anykind of punishment under shariah laws?

i made some words bolds to realize how hard is fulfilling the conditions of such punishment

brainrees , this issue must be studying with open minded from all it's side to know the basic purposes of shariah laws

i can't imagine that such a punishment will be excuted , if shariah law excuted correctly
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:59 AM
 
Location: UK.
348 posts, read 459,031 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i can understand your confusion about me , i will try as posible as i can to cover my view as whole

- firstly , i can feel how far stonning is very very taugh punishment and completely unacceptable and very barbaric

- you asked me why i defend it ? well , it dosn't mean that i like it , the punishment is very taugh to accept , i agree with you
it's just if i accepted islam as a relegion , so i accept it as whole , i can't change it according to my desire or according to 21st century

- the most important point i need from you to understand is that what happened with raped victim is completely against islam and against shariah , the same with what happened with those 2 boys is agianst islam and against shariah , children not punished under shariah laws .
that's why i hope from bottom of my heart that you don't judge on relegion from news , you should to ask scholars of islam about such behaviours .

in the last , you should to know that stonning in islam is different than stonning in OT
in islam there is just 2 situation where you can stonned somebody
1- rape crime , the rapist should be stonned to death if it's proofed that he did ( i think it dosn't need 4 witness ) , but the victim can forgave him if she want

2- married male or female commit adultery without shame in public places
as for example adultery in beach or in the streets or party or porno movies . under shariah it limited with 4 witnesses against them
(allah didn't want from islamic communities to be sinfull society , it's acceptable to find sinfull ones , not sinfull society )

for the first situation , i think that the rapist not deserve any mercy except from the victim

for the second situation , what do you think the probability of such crime may happens , that married man or woman commit adultery in public within islamic community , beside they know that it will made them subjected to stonned to death

why anyhuman being will make such crime in public if he can make it secretly without anykind of punishment under shariah laws?

i made some words bolds to realize how hard is fulfilling the conditions of such punishment

brainrees , this issue must be studying with open minded from all it's side to know the basic purposes of shariah laws

i can't imagine that such a punishment will be excuted , if shariah law excuted correctly
Elwill - my time is short, so I can only answer you in a few sentences for now.

I admit that I know very little about sharia law - and what I have seen is not to my liking, but I can see that it makes complete sense to you. On reading through your last posting, I may be totally wrong, but I seem to sense a deep conflict in you (with respect) over this whole business of execution. I see you not as an unkind individual, but a human being who is struggling hard to understand the darker aspect of your religion.

If this is really so, (as I suspect), you are not alone on these forums. I have been debating a very similar thing with a British lady who is very devout, but hates the cruel bits in the Old Testament as much as I do, as an atheist. Maybe you don't agree, but something inside tells me that if you were given the choice whether to execute someone or pardon them, (if it was within your power), I believe you would choose to pardon them, and let them off with a lighter sentence. You would listen to your heart - I really feel this, reading between the lines.

Must go, maybe catch up with you later.

Brian,
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