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Old 11-17-2008, 12:00 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,201 times
Reputation: 161

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJLethal View Post
This reminds me of typical Christian defenses..."taking it out of context" or the "translation is wrong."
but i'm not deceiving you nor tell a lie , christians arab never raise something like that against the quran because they understand what the arabic quran means

Quote:
Elwill, we can debate these things all day, but the bottom line is you believe in something unscientific. There is no scientific evidence for Allah, just as there is none for Yahweh or Zeus, Thor, Apollo, werewolves, Keebler Elves, unicorns, Jesus etc.
the existence of Allah requires no proof simply because the existence of everything else is proved in reference to Him , The Most High, to make matters easy for the human intellect to comprehend, man is asked to contemplate his own creation and all that is in the Universe.

if i find robot ( even destroyed robot) in other planet , i can say that there is something intellegent create that robot i will not need proofs for that , the proof is exixstence of the robot itself , yet you didn't have scientific proofs that this robot is existed by the chance


indicators of God's existence are everywhere in the world, but we tend to overlook them because they are so familiar to us. If you consider how a big tree comes from a small seed and the process of planting the seed, its producing a shoot out of the soil, the way it establishes its roots, and how it grows, blooms and yields its specific brand of fruit, you will conclude that only Allah could have given the seed all these characteristics. But we do not tend to reflect on this, because the planting of trees and plants and waiting for their yield is so familiar to us that we tend to think of it as a simple natural process. It may be so, but who made it so natural?

Similarly, the birth of every child is a miracle, but we tend to accept it as the most natural thing on earth. Such birth is certainly a natural phenomenon, but who said that natural phenomena are not miraculous? Since it is beyond man's control, it is definitely subject to the will of a different power, i.e. that of Allah. Man has been studying this process of conception, pregnancy, and birth for centuries on end, but he still cannot influence, amend or change this process. Nor can man determine when to start it or influence its outcome. Not even the best techniques of helping women conceive change the fact that all efforts of man do not amount to more than inducing the start of the process and allowing it to take its course. Otherwise, can man conceive of any method which would bring children into being, without relying on the process of fertilizing a female egg with a male sperm?

Quote:
Until you can prove Allah exists scientifically, it's just a matter of faith which I reject as a reality.
i can give you thousands of proofs made me believe that God exist
how many doupts you have to made me believe that he isn't ?

1-There is an incredibly strong fort, it has no doors, there is no way to get in. In fact, there is not even a hole in it. From outside it glows like the moon and from inside it shimmers like gold. It is sealed from all sides, matter of fact it is air tight. Suddenly one of its doors breaks down, a living thing with eyes and ears, a beautiful looking animal appears yelling and wandering all over. So is not there a creator who made it possible for life to take place in this secured and closed fort? And is not this Creator better than humans?
(btw it talking about the egg)

2-The leaves of Toot (berries) are all but one. Each leaf tastes exactly the same. Insects, honey bees, cows, goats, and deer live off of it. After eating these the insects produce silk; bees produce honey; deer give musk (a special kind of scent), cows and goats deliver off-springs. Is this not clear evidence that one kind of leaf has so many qualities, and who created these qualities? It is the Creator who we call Allah

allah argue with athiests in the quran and says
- " Do they not look at the sky above them, how We have made it and adorned it and there are no flaws in it? And the earth, We have spread it out and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth in pairs.
- For an insight and reminder to every servant turning to Allah. And We sent down from the sky rain charged with blessing, and We produce therewith gardens and grain for harvest. And tall (and stately) palm trees, with shoots of fruit stalks, piled one over another; as sustenance for (Allah’s) servants. And We give new life therewith to land (arabic word is Ard) that is dead: thus will be the resurrection."

in another verse
"We created you; will you then admit the truth? Have you seen that which you emit? Do you create it or are We the Creator? We mete out death among you and We are not to be outrun. That We may transfigure you and make you what you know not.

Allah, The Exalted, is reminding mankind that He (Subhaaneh) created them from nothing.

another verse
"Have you seen that which you cultivate? Is it you who foster it, or are We the Fosterer? If We willed, We verily could make it chaff, then would you cease not to exclaim: Lo! We are laden with debt! No, but we are deprived’.



"Have you observed the water which you drink? Is it you who shed it from the rain clouds, or are We the Shedder? If We willed, We verily could make it bitter.
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Old 11-17-2008, 08:44 AM
 
418 posts, read 650,462 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
but i'm not deceiving you nor tell a lie , christians arab never raise something like that against the quran because they understand what the arabic quran means



the existence of Allah requires no proof simply because the existence of everything else is proved in reference to Him , The Most High, to make matters easy for the human intellect to comprehend, man is asked to contemplate his own creation and all that is in the Universe.

if i find robot ( even destroyed robot) in other planet , i can say that there is something intellegent create that robot i will not need proofs for that , the proof is exixstence of the robot itself , yet you didn't have scientific proofs that this robot is existed by the chance


indicators of God's existence are everywhere in the world, but we tend to overlook them because they are so familiar to us. If you consider how a big tree comes from a small seed and the process of planting the seed, its producing a shoot out of the soil, the way it establishes its roots, and how it grows, blooms and yields its specific brand of fruit, you will conclude that only Allah could have given the seed all these characteristics. But we do not tend to reflect on this, because the planting of trees and plants and waiting for their yield is so familiar to us that we tend to think of it as a simple natural process. It may be so, but who made it so natural?

Similarly, the birth of every child is a miracle, but we tend to accept it as the most natural thing on earth. Such birth is certainly a natural phenomenon, but who said that natural phenomena are not miraculous? Since it is beyond man's control, it is definitely subject to the will of a different power, i.e. that of Allah. Man has been studying this process of conception, pregnancy, and birth for centuries on end, but he still cannot influence, amend or change this process. Nor can man determine when to start it or influence its outcome. Not even the best techniques of helping women conceive change the fact that all efforts of man do not amount to more than inducing the start of the process and allowing it to take its course. Otherwise, can man conceive of any method which would bring children into being, without relying on the process of fertilizing a female egg with a male sperm?



i can give you thousands of proofs made me believe that God exist
how many doupts you have to made me believe that he isn't ?

1-There is an incredibly strong fort, it has no doors, there is no way to get in. In fact, there is not even a hole in it. From outside it glows like the moon and from inside it shimmers like gold. It is sealed from all sides, matter of fact it is air tight. Suddenly one of its doors breaks down, a living thing with eyes and ears, a beautiful looking animal appears yelling and wandering all over. So is not there a creator who made it possible for life to take place in this secured and closed fort? And is not this Creator better than humans?
(btw it talking about the egg)

2-The leaves of Toot (berries) are all but one. Each leaf tastes exactly the same. Insects, honey bees, cows, goats, and deer live off of it. After eating these the insects produce silk; bees produce honey; deer give musk (a special kind of scent), cows and goats deliver off-springs. Is this not clear evidence that one kind of leaf has so many qualities, and who created these qualities? It is the Creator who we call Allah

allah argue with athiests in the quran and says
- " Do they not look at the sky above them, how We have made it and adorned it and there are no flaws in it? And the earth, We have spread it out and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth in pairs.
- For an insight and reminder to every servant turning to Allah. And We sent down from the sky rain charged with blessing, and We produce therewith gardens and grain for harvest. And tall (and stately) palm trees, with shoots of fruit stalks, piled one over another; as sustenance for (Allah’s) servants. And We give new life therewith to land (arabic word is Ard) that is dead: thus will be the resurrection."

in another verse
"We created you; will you then admit the truth? Have you seen that which you emit? Do you create it or are We the Creator? We mete out death among you and We are not to be outrun. That We may transfigure you and make you what you know not.

Allah, The Exalted, is reminding mankind that He (Subhaaneh) created them from nothing.

another verse
"Have you seen that which you cultivate? Is it you who foster it, or are We the Fosterer? If We willed, We verily could make it chaff, then would you cease not to exclaim: Lo! We are laden with debt! No, but we are deprived’.



"Have you observed the water which you drink? Is it you who shed it from the rain clouds, or are We the Shedder? If We willed, We verily could make it bitter.
Elwill, I have no doubt you believe in Allah completely. If you'd like to convince Atheists such as myself, please present secular, scientific data. Just as any other religion, there isn't any. Until then, Islam is the same for me as other religions...myths.
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:24 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,201 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJLethal View Post
Elwill, I have no doubt you believe in Allah completely. If you'd like to convince Atheists such as myself, please present secular, scientific data. Just as any other religion, there isn't any. Until then, Islam is the same for me as other religions...myths.
what is your basic reasons which made you think that this universe and the creature lives within are without creator ?
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:28 PM
 
418 posts, read 650,462 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
what is your basic reasons which made you think that this universe and the creature lives within are without creator ?
The same as any other rational and scientifically-minded person...lack of empirical evidence.
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Old 11-17-2008, 04:33 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,066,570 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJLethal View Post
The same as any other rational and scientifically-minded person...lack of empirical evidence.

scientifically how did you exists?
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:15 PM
 
418 posts, read 650,462 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
scientifically how did you exists?
I am alive. I know I am alive. Others know I am alive. You can measure my bodily functions scientifically. We can measure the world around us.

If this is leading to a "what if, hypothetical-Matrix world," if that was my reality, I'd have a lot more concerns than wondering which god to choose.
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:47 PM
 
Location: pittsburgh
97 posts, read 111,543 times
Reputation: 36
i am a christian i wish i was a funatical muslam i wish there was sharia law in the us well maybe someday. if not that then maybe a gay cowboy. or would that be domestic partner for a horse.

Last edited by spidermanufacturing; 11-17-2008 at 06:51 PM.. Reason: more stupidity
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Old 11-17-2008, 10:40 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,201 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJLethal View Post
The same as any other rational and scientifically-minded person...lack of empirical evidence.
but i gave you some proofs , why you didn't refute it

beside , lack of emperical evidence dosn't proof existing or not existing of God , which means that you yourself dosn't have proofs about your beliefs
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Old 11-17-2008, 11:34 PM
 
418 posts, read 650,462 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
but i gave you some proofs , why you didn't refute it

beside , lack of emperical evidence dosn't proof existing or not existing of God , which means that you yourself dosn't have proofs about your beliefs
The onus is on you to prove your claims. You can't say Allah is god and leave it at that. Please, bring Allah to Times Square in New York and lets us have a little chat with him.

I can say that I have an invisible mouse in my pocket that talks to me telepathically. It can't be measured and only I am aware of it. Now disprove it! Anyone can play that game.

If that is how you see reality, my sympathies to you.
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Old 11-18-2008, 05:27 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,201 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJLethal View Post
The onus is on you to prove your claims. You can't say Allah is god and leave it at that.
I can say that I have an invisible mouse in my pocket that talks to me telepathically. It can't be measured and only I am aware of it. Now disprove it! Anyone can play that game.

If that is how you see reality, my sympathies to you.
but i believe that God sent prophets with miracles which proof that they are prophets from God

so if i trust the miracles , i believe God exist , isn't that logical sense for me to believe that God exist ?

Quote:
Please, bring Allah to Times Square in New York and lets us have a little chat with him.
i'm allready arguing with you by the words of (God) , i'm completely convinced that quran God's word , and no one can proof for me that it's human's word
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