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Old 11-27-2008, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
And you fail to cognitively realize that Muslims who speak out can be beheaded for doing so . . . and there is no comparision with voluntarily following a stupid prohibition of your faith that has POTENTIALLY dire medical consequences . . . and involuntarily having your children ACTUALLY blown up on their school bus by someone following their barbaric and primitive religion.
Actually, I'm fully aware of that. I've spent plenty of time in the Middle East. In case you're mistaken, I'm not giving Islam a reprieve from anything. I'm simply pointing out the 'pot calling the kettle black' mentality that seems to be happening on this thread.

I think it's disasterous from a logical standpoint to encompass all of the bad within Islam and say "This is Islam" when one can just as easily do the same thing with Christianity although some of the methods and practices may be altered.

You also have to realize that although the societies of the Middle East are by and large religious states, it has only been recently that they have had any sort of influence with the rest of the world. Only until oil was discovered were they able to crawl from underneath the dreadful heat of the desert sun and try to modernize. So, there seems to be an interesting feedback cycle in which an area of the world has societally never altered because of their relative isolation and the religion thereof. I think that if the Middle East were full of Christians and the rest of the world full of Muslims, it would not be much different in how their methods were practiced.

Western society advanced at a much faster rate, and due to that, the religions had to evolve to keep up with the different philosophies and mindsets of the people. The Middle East had more or less stayed the same up until about a hundred years ago. It's a tit-for-tat relationship. Christianity is just as primitive in its Bronze Age methodologies as Islam is - the difference is that society has changed the two respective religions to survive.

Regardless, I stand by ininitial post in saying that they are both unqualified to pass judgment on one another - EVEN in this day and age.
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Regardless, I stand by ininitial post in saying that they are both unqualified to pass judgment on one another - EVEN in this day and age.
Nonsense . . . there is an absolute qualitative difference in their societal impacts . . . and active criticism and exhortation to change by the world is the only conceivable method for changing the primitive and barbaric practices of Islam. Christians are part of the more civilized world comparatively speaking as their barbarities are voluntarily accepted. The urgency of further civilizing them is not even remotely comparable.
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because they do not FORCE anyone to accept their nonsense . . . they try to persuade. Islam is ALL about FORCE . . . not options . . . death or dhimmitude. Because it is explicit in the Qu'ran . . . and Imams and ALL Muslims are exhorted to deceive the infidel in ANY way that they can until the ascendance of Islamic Law can be accomplished. Would you believe any such assurances from an Imam so instructed by his God? BUT . . . as long as those sickening, aggravating and childish. putdowns DON'T involve coercion or force or violence . . . so what? It is the Islamic insistence on violence, deceit and force in the name of Allah that differentiates it from civilized religions. It is primitive and barbaric, period . . . until it actually removes ALL traces of force from its beliefs and practices true tolerance by openly removing such radical and actively violent elements from among them. Without the full support of the so-called "moderate" Muslim communities these elements could not possibly be so widespread and globally active.
How is any of this different than the books of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc... that pronounce death to unbelievers and other miscellaneous people going against the word of God? How?! How dare I say do you not see the gloating and glaring contradictions?

Because of the New Testament?

Well, what about this comment from Jesus in Matthew 5:18

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The way I understand this is that Jesus is saying the law is fulfilled by his coming but not a single thing should disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished as indicated by his rather vehement lament about adultery (which so many "Christians" cannot follow on their own). So how can we dictate that the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy should not be practiced today? The law has merely been 'fulfilled' according to so many, it has not been abolished. Therefore, stoning prostitutes and killing disobedient children still seems to be something the Christian faith should adhere to.

Matthew 5:27-30

You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


This is clearly a throwback to Old Testament megalomania that seems to be thrown out in this day in society but why? Yet, why don't people gouge out their eyes or cut off their hoo-haa's for committing adultery? The Bible commands them to. Hell, even Jesus commanded them to.
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:55 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
How is any of this different than the books of Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc... that pronounce death to unbelievers and other miscellaneous people going against the word of God? How?! How dare I say do you not see the gloating and glaring contradictions?

Because of the New Testament?

This is clearly a throwback to Old Testament megalomania that seems to be thrown out in this day in society but why? Yet, why don't people gouge out their eyes or cut off their hoo-haa's for committing adultery? The Bible commands them to. Hell, even Jesus commanded them to.
You can continue to ignore that we have progressed through millennia and removed all sign of those barbarities from Christianity that involve FORCING OR KILLING others . . . it is ALL about convincing, tolerating, and letting the results be between God and the individual . . . NOT religions. ISLAM has NOT!!!
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Old 11-27-2008, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense . . . there is an absolute qualitative difference in their societal impacts . . . and active criticism and exhortation to change by the world is the only conceivable method for changing the primitive and barbaric practices of Islam. Christians are part of the more civilized world comparatively speaking as their barbarities are voluntarily accepted. The urgency of further civilizing them is not even remotely comparable.
Christians are part of the more civilized world not because Christianity is civilized but because the society forced Christianity to become more civilized for a variety of different reasons. Again, had the Moors succeeded in invading the rest of Spain in the 14th century, they would have probably headed straight for England and we may all very well be speaking Arabic today. Yet, I still think that Western Culture would be 'more Western' than the Middle East is today. The Middle East has been an absolute nothing for thousands of years in so much as modern world history goes with it's only shining spot being in the tales of the Bronze Age mythology of several thousand years ago. Their backwards ways of doing business are more a respite into an inability for cultural paradigms to alter their religions rather than the religions conforming to the cultural paradigms (which is what we see in the West).
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You can continue to ignore that we have progressed through millennia and removed all sign of those barbarities from Christianity that involve FORCING OR KILLING others . . . it is ALL about convincing, tolerating, and letting the results be between God and the individual . . . NOT religions. ISLAM has NOT!!!
And you can continue to ignore the fact that Christianity fails to hold a moratorium on the happenings for this.

But, really... Is it any less monsterous to kill someone in trying to force them to believe than it is to proselytize in an African country and threaten them with hell for wearing condoms?! Especially when 33% of the people in some of these places have AIDS. How can you say that has been eradicated from Christianity? It's hypocritical and downright ignorant to say that these notions are not parts of Christianity and then turn around and say that Islam is a religion that promotes violence because of "A, B, and C". By these conjectures, I hereby do assert that if you are to make that claim, than I can say that Christianity is one that promotes the massive slaughter of thousands of people by preaching to refrain from using condoms. Either way, I think I've proved the point that Christianity has just as many infantily stupid and ridiculous religious excuses to harm people as Islam does. Just because the vociferous voice of Islam seems to pervade the news in this day and age doesn't mean that Christianity is any less docile or pathetic.
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Christians are part of the more civilized world not because Christianity is civilized but because the society forced Christianity to become more civilized for a variety of different reasons.
But Islam has NOT been . . . and THAT is the essential problem the the current PC liberalism refuses to address. Islam MUST be forced to become civilized or we are in for some terrible times.
Quote:
Their backwards ways of doing business are more a respite into an inability for cultural paradigms to alter their religions rather than the religions conforming to the cultural paradigms (which is what we see in the West).
Subjunctive what if's are hardly relevant to the current situation with global terrorism an accomplished fact of modern life. These people are serious. Western civilization is The Great Satan to these morons and they will not stop until we stop them by force of arms. They will NOT accept a more civlized view (as Christianity has . . . for whatever reasons) because they consider such "civilization" evil incarnate!
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But Islam has NOT been . . . and THAT is the essential problem the the current PC liberalism refuses to address. Islam MUST be forced to become civilized or we are in for some terrible times.Subjunctive what if's are hardly relevant to the current situation with global terrorism an accomplished fact of modern life. These people are serious. Western civilization is The Great Satan to these morons and they will not stop until we stop them by force of arms. They will NOT accept a more civlized view (as Christianity has . . . for whatever reasons) because they consider such "civilization" evil incarnate!
Again, I'm not defending Islam as a religion of peace or that it is even close to having a better referendum of truth as far as morality goes. All I'm merely saying is that Christians, such as the OP, often fail to recognize the gloating contradiction in all of this. He distinctly attacked Islam by promoting his religion on some sort of shelf as if there were nothing wrong with it when there's a lot wrong with it. Thus, I find it to be ingenuine and falling short of merit.

I agree. Islam and the societies ruled by it need to grow up. Of that, I have no doubt and no argument. There is a lot wrong with Islam. But, I can say this in having made a few relationships with those people that many don't understand. The Middle Eastern culture is not one that is going to bend over for someone telling them that they have a better referendum on the truth and that they need to "grow up". It's a culture ingrained with the mindset of machismo and brawn. The approach in this manner is ineffective and probably more regressive than anything.

Edit: Quite honestly, they're starting just a hundred years ago what we in the West started 600 years ago in terms of revolutionizing the way they think. And, part of what I've been getting at is that 600 years later we still have Christianity doing some pretty ugly things. Let's not think that this radicalism with Islam is just going to vanish.
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Old 11-27-2008, 11:37 PM
 
Location: 3814′45″N 12237′53″W
4,152 posts, read 9,835,689 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But Islam has NOT been . . . and THAT is the essential problem the the current PC liberalism refuses to address. Islam MUST be forced to become civilized or we are in for some terrible times.
Pardon me, but you do realize that you are still arguing about Islam in such a way that makes me think of a quote from the Princess Bride:

"You keep useing that word. i don't think it means what you think it means."

The fundamentalist Wahhabi tradition of Islam is what you continue referring to as Islam. They are the "Desert Islam" which was supposedly practiced in Prophet Muhammed's time.
They are the ones funding AlQueda and the like. They believe that Islam should (like the Salafiyyah movement ) return to its purest roots.
Not all Muslims are Wahhabi.
Islam has been practiced in a variety forms.

In the modern era with the likes of the Sufi or the populist Islam still found in Cairo, Istanbul, Caasablanca and Damascus, they are more embracing of modernity and tolerance of other religions in a modern era (past century or so) reinterpretation of the Koran.

Would you please do some research on the current state of the Islamic traditions before spouting ignorant generalizations?

I am truly sick and tired of reading and hearing from people, (Yep, mostly alleged Christians) using the term 'Islam' and 'Muslim' as if they understood it.
And then to go on ad nauseam in a bizarre sort of pissing contest on "whose religion is better or worse" or more 'civilized' is just plain stupid.

Islam + Muslim does NOT = radical terrorist.
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Old 11-28-2008, 12:06 AM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,725,598 times
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
By these conjectures, I hereby do assert that if you are to make that claim, than I can say that Christianity is one that promotes the massive slaughter of thousands of people by preaching to refrain from using condoms. Either way, I think I've proved the point that Christianity has just as many infantily stupid and ridiculous religious excuses to harm people as Islam does. Just because the vociferous voice of Islam seems to pervade the news in this day and age doesn't mean that Christianity is any less docile or pathetic.
Promoting by preaching is NOT comparable to promoting by killing . . . preaching is decidedly MORE DOCILE than killing . . . pathetic is a separate and less important issue,IMO.
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