U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-28-2008, 09:48 PM
 
40,066 posts, read 26,739,576 times
Reputation: 6050

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
They ARE comparable. How is killing people silently different from killing people explosively? It's still killing people!
A person does not advocate killing, does not participate in it, advocates the opposite, and advocates a ridiculous and dangerous policy that COULD lead to death (but not if abstinence was involved) . . . but took no action to stop a killer with his own agenda that no sane person believed he could actually be engaged in (Hitler). THAT is the same as actively advocating and directly engaging in the killing of unbelievers and innocents without warning or provocation to convert them to Islam and extend Sharia law to the whole world?
Quote:
I detest religion because it provides the excuse, the pathway, the methodology to take other political, sociological, or greed-based agendas and project it onto an imaginary being.
I am no friend of religion, per se . . . but the underlying concept they so badly (and disgustingly, and heinously . . . etc.) "market and try to promote" . . . belief in a Creator and purpose for humankind . . . that I support.
Quote:
No. It is not irrelevant. Why can't it just be a political animosity or dispute? Why does irrational logic supporting the idea of some sort of ego-depraved entity requiring and supporting these acts have to enter the picture? It shouldn't and that's why no one wins in a religiously ideological battle.
Because we are people . . . and people insist on being people (the good and the bad) regardless.
Quote:
That, in my mind, is what we call in the legal world being an "Accessory" to a crime.
Since you raise the legality . . . I'm sure you know (or should know) that it takes some action in support (not mere inaction) to invest culpability in an accessory.
Quote:
And who the hell is Godwin? And why do I care if I make him upset?
Sorry . . . I thought all net denizens were familiar with Godwin.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-28-2008, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,276,202 times
Reputation: 4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
A person does not advocate killing, does not participate in it, advocates the opposite, and advocates a ridiculous and dangerous policy that COULD lead to death (but not if abstinence was involved) . . . but took no action to stop a killer with his own agenda that no sane person believed he could actually be engaged in (Hitler).
THAT is the same as actively advocating and directly engaging in the killing of unbelievers and innocents without warning or provocation to convert them to Islam and extend Sharia law to the whole world?
Huh? No. In case you've forgotten, a lot of this discussion has centered around why Islamic 'moderates' fail to speak out against more extremist actions. You, incorrectly by the way, have lumped all Muslims into one group as being that which worships a violent religion. I, in turn, have responded and said that if we are to assert that, than I can take the Christian religion and say the same thing.

Thus, the silence from the Christians in terms of things like Bosnia, Northern Ireland, and yes, Hitler (I'm so sorry Godwin for bringing him up... Perhaps we should just never mention his name anymore because it's just bad to talk about it ) is on the same playing field, level and dimness that the 'moderates' of Islam face.

Again, the glaring hypocrisy in all of this is that one side is accusing moderates of not protesting the heinousness of Islam (when there are those that do) and they say that despite all of the things Christianity has not spoken out against.

Now, perhaps if you want to boil it down and say that neither extreme aspects of the two religions represent the religion as a whole and that they may merely be sects of the two than I don't have a problem with that. But, that's not what you did. You stuck to your guns and you asserted that the violence stemming from Islam is one that is ingrained in the religion and not just a part of a sect. Therefore, I will stick to my guns and say that if you can take a sect of a certain religion and define the whole of that religion as the basis for it, than I will more than happily consider you a part of the Westboro Baptist Church and that is what defines the whole of Christianity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am no friend of religion, per se . . . but the underlying concept they so badly (and disgustingly, and heinously . . . etc.) "market and try to promote" . . . belief in a Creator and purpose for humankind . . . that I support.
Supporting a belief in a Creator, I think, due to the nature of its unfalsifiability will only enable people to further persecute and destroy on the premise of those beliefs. I think it's a disease to mankind.

As far as a purpose for mankind. Why does there have to be a purpose? What is this grandstanding, egotistical notion that because we exist we must have some sort of purpose? We owe absolutely nothing to the universe. It doesn't have to give us a purpose. This is an insipidly inane idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Because we are people . . . and people insist on being people (the good and the bad) regardless.
True. So why have a God that people can project their goodness or badness onto? That's the part that is stupid and ridiculous. Again. Stand up. Take responsibility for yourself and stop using this being as an excuse for all of your moral or immoral actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Since you raise the legality . . . I'm sure you know (or should know) that it takes some action in support (not mere inaction) to invest culpability in an accessory.
Sometimes, in the court of law, inaction is merely a device for action - if you follow me.

If you don't follow me, read these articles:

The Silence of the Vatican And the Plight of the Jews

The Decade of Appeasement

Foreign Affairs - Book Review - The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965 - Michael Phayer

And I have plenty more if you'd like to read them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry . . . I thought all net denizens were familiar with Godwin.
Oh... Look!! There's a law that says we cannot bring up Hitler on the internet. Looks like I broke it. Moderator, infract me! I broke Godwin's Law!

Give me a break. You kept asking for examples and I gave them to you. Now, you want impunity from a response with Godwin's Law.

Sorry to make your little Godwin goblin angry or irritated. I won't feed him after midnight and I won't get him wet either.

Last edited by GCSTroop; 11-28-2008 at 11:49 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2008, 11:46 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
hi , christian arab
sorry for not responding to you immediatly , i was very busy last 2 days


i didn,t explore your links yet , but i konw that you direct your question for me because i'm egyptian
so , for the sake of your argument , though it does make nothing with relegion . but i will try to discuss with you in details every single event you refering to against egypt to find out what you really know about it and if there are any lies or misinformation in these links

so that we can know the full truth about your news

i'm responding to you from my work now , youtube site is banned here . but i will go through the posts in this thread for now
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-29-2008, 12:26 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You do seem to make such judgments of people's ignorance routinely from your pedestal of superior knowledge (I assume) . . . except that you cannot possibly know what I do or do not know. That there are strong similarities among the three religions is undeniable. Islam has been described as "Judaism plus missionary endeavor, or Christianity minus the teachings of St. Paul." Either description would be accurate, but the ethics of true Islam are most strongly related to those expressed by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount. This makes it very difficult for me to understand the debased concepts of an Islamic terrorism or Jihad, even though they are consistent with the bloody history of this religion. I repeat given the perversion of its ethic regarding infidels or non-believers . . ."How can you trust what ANY Muslim says to you?"
but quran teachs us that

60-8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

2-109 Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

5-13 But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them (jews) excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

if you have something about history of mohammed (pbuh) bring it for discussion , and give us your insight about it
i hope to give me something muslims believe ( i mean from muslims sites )

Quote:
He was not well accepted, only thirteen followers, in his first three years. His own tribe gave his followers the despised name of Muslims, or Moslems, which at that time meant "traitors." The name, however, survived and today means "the reconciled" or "those who submit to Allah."
HuH
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-29-2008, 12:32 AM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 2,979,094 times
Reputation: 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post
Isn’t it not true that “today’s” radical Islam is targeting non-Muslims in the Islamic world, and even the West? The same truth that can be said about the crusaders, the difference is, this is happening today, not in history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab View Post


That’s your interpretation. I merely asked a question “where are the so-called moderate Muslims” when their fellow countrymen are being attacked for being non-Muslims. I have yet to receive a legitimate answer, only excuses and history lessons.


As someone already mentioned, what about Bosnia in the 90's? Were Christians entirely blameless? Even if the guilty party was brought to justice, has the pain stopped lingering on?

Also, "Deeply Christian" politicians and figureheads from a "Christian nation" have murdered over 1 million people (largely civilian and almost entirely Muslim) since 2001. Is that in the here and now enough? Is that present day enough?

Quote:
You suggest one should dwell on history? When is it a good time to move forward? How does millennia sound? Still too soon? If we use your logic, I guess you wont criticize a Jewish person for bombed/kills Germans.
Quote:

Okay already, we get it, you’re an atheist/you don’t believe. Start a new thread about it.

I believe, you are lost…where did I say my religion is better than yours, or anybody for that matter? So basically, no matter, how much good, how much time passes, you are judging by decades of history. Aren’t you the forward thinker!

You’re so fixated on history; I’m surprised you can even think about a few minutes ahead, let alone tomorrow.


Atheist or not, It still is pretty likely that in the future (IE, NOT the past, not history, not centuries ago but a few tomorrows from now) people are going to look at the whole of monotheism as it is today and see the barbarism it has caused (is causing and will cause). That has very little to do with Atheism. That has to do with the asinine and maniacal lengths people go to in the name of some vengeful deity that has been bastardized by greedy, selfish, lazy and egotistical humans.

And again, I will ask. Will this be equally as trivial to you when it is in the past? It should be, following your logic thus far seeing as how historical events seem to be trivial, meaningless, unimportant and absolutely without merit for any sort of judgment. Will you still be so cavalier and simply say "oh, that was like 50 years ago, it's no big deal now..."?

So what do you suggest then? "Taking back your religion from the extremists"? How would that go down without doing exactly what these people are doing?

And lastly, I'll ask yet again. How is any religion supposed to benefit humanity when its followers would rather preach all day about how the other one is wrong criticize the every move of the other and so on. Does this not build walls within humanity? This could possibly, just maybe - perhaps be a large portion of the cause of what we are seeing now.

[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-29-2008, 12:53 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Promoting by preaching is NOT comparable to promoting by killing . . . preaching is decidedly MORE DOCILE than killing . . . pathetic is a separate and less important issue,IMO.
something like that !

16-125 Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and have disputations with them in the best manner; surely your Lord best knows those who go astray from His path, and He knows best those who follow the right way.

or like that !

28-55 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 08:01 AM
 
40,066 posts, read 26,739,576 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Huh? No. In case you've forgotten, a lot of this discussion has centered around why Islamic 'moderates' fail to speak out against more extremist actions. You, incorrectly by the way, have lumped all Muslims into one group as being that which worships a violent religion. I, in turn, have responded and said that if we are to assert that, than I can take the Christian religion and say the same thing.
Where were those moderates during the mass demonstrations about cartoons, etc.? Where are they demonstrating against the kiling and barbarity? The truth is, if they exist, they are in the closet . . . because they would be killed otherwise.
Quote:
Thus, the silence from the Christians in terms of things like Bosnia, Northern Ireland, and yes, Hitler (I'm so sorry Godwin for bringing him up... Perhaps we should just never mention his name anymore because it's just bad to talk about it ) is on the same playing field, level and dimness that the 'moderates' of Islam face.
Nonsense . . . stop co-mingling religious persecution and promotion with political struggles just because the participants are religious.
Quote:
Again, the glaring hypocrisy in all of this is that one side is accusing moderates of not protesting the heinousness of Islam (when there are those that do) and they say that despite all of the things Christianity has not spoken out against.
You comparison meter is irretrievably broken . . . you are beyond apples and oranges . . . to apples and planets. No Christians are engaged inmass demonstrations about cartoons, vandalizing and terrorizing. No Christians are killing people for being non-Christian . . . or God forbid that evil incarnate . . . a Jew. Behead them all!
Quote:
Now, perhaps if you want to boil it down and say that neither extreme aspects of the two religions represent the religion as a whole and that they may merely be sects of the two than I don't have a problem with that. But, that's not what you did. You stuck to your guns and you asserted that the violence stemming from Islam is one that is ingrained in the religion and not just a part of a sect. Therefore, I will stick to my guns and say that if you can take a sect of a certain religion and define the whole of that religion as the basis for it, than I will more than happily consider you a part of the Westboro Baptist Church and that is what defines the whole of Christianity.
Extremists are extremists . . . but mass demonstrations belie any such "moderation" among them. Our political demonstrations usually have more than one side reflected in them . . . where is that other side?
Quote:
Supporting a belief in a Creator, I think, due to the nature of its unfalsifiability will only enable people to further persecute and destroy on the premise of those beliefs. I think it's a disease to mankind.

As far as a purpose for mankind. Why does there have to be a purpose? What is this grandstanding, egotistical notion that because we exist we must have some sort of purpose? We owe absolutely nothing to the universe. It doesn't have to give us a purpose. This is an insipidly inane idea.
Interesting . . . I find it odd that a purposeless universe would create a being with such a longing for purpose . . . but since I have had meditative contact with this purposeless universe you proclaim . . . I am absolutely convinced that you are wrong.
Quote:
True. So why have a God that people can project their goodness or badness onto? That's the part that is stupid and ridiculous. Again. Stand up. Take responsibility for yourself and stop using this being as an excuse for all of your moral or immoral actions.
Projecting goodness or badness (as you are doing to God) is a human trait . . . hence the sibling rivalry that causes all evil to be projected onto the Jew by Muslims. Stop blaming God for the faults of humans.
Quote:
Sorry to make your little Godwin goblin angry or irritated. I won't feed him after midnight and I won't get him wet either.
No need to get defensive or angry, Troop . . . it is a net joke.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 08:10 AM
 
40,066 posts, read 26,739,576 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
but quran teachs us that

60-8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

2-109 Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.

5-13 But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them (jews) excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
Perhaps you missed the part where I said "the ethics of true Islam are most strongly related to those expressed by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount."

The problem is that the true ethic applies to believers in the fold . . . not to outsiders and infidels . . . especially not those evil Jews.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,508,264 times
Reputation: 258
Peace for the Muslim. Is that the multiplication of food for the need, or first the increased overcoming of the degradation of Necessity against becoming sick? So much for trust.

It is in fact not a miracle that enables adequate nourishment for the Faith.

Anyone interested for the ecology of populating the Planet?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2008, 11:22 PM
 
8,743 posts, read 10,276,853 times
Reputation: 3386
Hey Elwill,

I am sorry that they are giving you such a hard time. I dont know if you saw but earlier in a thread, I stuck up for you saying that it was wrong to direct this attention on to you and Islam. I still stand by it.

GCStroop, Cleatis, you guys put up a great debate here. I would have joined in but as you know, today marked the end of a very very very busy holiday weekend. I work two retail jobs so you all know where I was!!

But yeah, don't even bother with these people. They put Christianity on the top of all the religions in the world and think that is where it belongs. They think they are all peaceful and loving, when in reality I think they are one of the most dangerous religions on this Earth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top