Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Sorry . . . but until Muslim nations have reduced such radicals to infrequent criminal acts on a par with our own domestic terrorists who are actively pursued and suppressed (not funded and supported surreptitiously) . . . the equality is appropriate. Clean out the cesspools and stop them from infecting other societies globally . . . then such assertions will have merit (besides . . it is Allah that commands Muslims to lie, deceive and in any way manipulate the infidels UNTIL Sharia Law can be instituted globally. Why should the civilized world believe any Muslim?
Last edited by MysticPhD; 11-28-2008 at 12:58 AM..
Sorry . . . but until Muslim nations have reduced such radicals to infrequent criminal acts on a par with our own domestic terrorists who are actively pursued and suppressed (not funded and supported surreptitiously) . . . the equality is appropriate. Clean out the cesspools and stop them from infecting other societies globally . . . then such assertions will have merit (besides . . it is Allah that commands Muslims to lie, deceive and in any way manipulate the infidels UNTIL Sharia Law can be instituted globally. Why should the civilized world believe any Muslim?
Personally, I think your ignorance on the topic is preceding you. I think it's rather obvious you've been fed the Fox News brownies which presume that all Muslims are terrorists and that every country that has Muslims in it also harbor terrorists. There are countries in the Middle East that are nothing like what you claim Muslim is as an entirety. I can speak from firsthand knowledge that places like Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, and even Kuwait are not nearly as backwards in their methods as you are trying to paint the whole of the Middle East and the Muslim world as.
What's interesting to note is that this very sense of ignorant foolishness is precisely the kind of temperament that absolutely enrages the people living over there. Earlier you talked about tolerance and respect but you've shown none of it. You've painted the modern-day Muslim person to be nothing better than a person who straps bombs to their chest and as another poster mentioned, you've stuck to a strict 'Wahabbi-ist' centered viewpoint based on extremely strict Shari'a law. You've ignored so many of the fundamental teachings of Muhammad Ibn Ismail al-Bukkhari whose hadith is just as profound a teaching of how to lead a proper Islamic lifestyle as any that Jesus or his disciples preached in regards to Christianity - and probably more thorough. His hadiths are a very fundamental tenant of the Sunni sect of the Islamic religion.
As well, it seems that you've also forgotten to take into context the Shi'a belief predominantly centered around The Twelve Imams which bear uncanny resemblances to the twelve disciples of Jesus. Most of their teachings, and probably the more docile of those teachings are focused more on the descendants of Muhammad in general which did do a relatively fair job at promoting peace and love themselves. However, before any of my Muslim friends jump on my back I do realize that Muhammad is the prophet most adored by the Islam religion.
Not only that, but it's amazing to me how little people see the resemblances of Islam to Christianity. Christianity has a Father, Son and Holy Ghost whereas Islam (more like Shi'a Islam) has Oneness, Justice, and Prophethood - which actually makes a little more sense if we're to talk about a trinity of sorts. Hell, the two religions are both sourced from Abraham and you worship the same god with a little different flare and a little different style. Might I also add, the same God as the Jews do as well.
Nevertheless, and all the glaring contradictions and comparisons aside, you've really failed to capture the essence of Islam with your tirade of how 'evil' they are while essentially showing your own two-sided behavior in much the same mentality that a radical Islamist may speak about the 'infidel' (which was a word commonly used by the Christian church up until rather recently to define non-believers.)
Honestly, yes, Islam has issues. Christianity has issues. Even Judaism and their less than appealing behavior in some parts of the Middle East has been rather repugnant and offsetting. But, for one to stand up on the podium and say that their religion preaches a better method because of current events is rather ridiculous. They're all guilty of horrible atrocities, stupidities, and mindless demagoguery.
Islam or any other religion + government = intolerance
Islam + a gullible free country = gradual Islamic dominance there, including the loss of tolerance and an increase of radical Islamic terrorist activity.(read more)
Personally, I think your ignorance on the topic is preceding you. I think it's rather obvious you've been fed the Fox News brownies which presume that all Muslims are terrorists and that every country that has Muslims in it also harbor terrorists. There are countries in the Middle East that are nothing like what you claim Muslim is as an entirety. I can speak from firsthand knowledge that places like Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, and even Kuwait are not nearly as backwards in their methods as you are trying to paint the whole of the Middle East and the Muslim world as.
You do seem to make such judgments of people's ignorance routinely from your pedestal of superior knowledge (I assume) . . . except that you cannot possibly know what I do or do not know. That there are strong similarities among the three religions is undeniable. Islam has been described as "Judaism plus missionary endeavor, or Christianity minus the teachings of St. Paul." Either description would be accurate, but the ethics of true Islam are most strongly related to those expressed by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount. This makes it very difficult for me to understand the debased concepts of an Islamic terrorism or Jihad, even though they are consistent with the bloody history of this religion. I repeat given the perversion of its ethic regarding infidels or non-believers . . ."How can you trust what ANY Muslim says to you?"
I agree that Mohammed is the preferred Prophet . . . and that is what is troubling. Thanks to him and his views . . . Islam has “devoured much flesh†and, unfortunately, still is doing so! Fundamentalists and fanatics always seem to corrupt everything in their cancerous quest for power and control over unbelievers! God must be very saddened by their perversions of such otherwise beautiful principles.
Mohammed, "The Praised One," was born in 570 A.D. For most of his life he was unknown. He married a rich, older woman in the trading business, after successfully managing her enterprise. It was during his trading journeys that he became exposed to the ideas of monotheism from the Jews and Christians, most particularly the ideas of asceticism in Christianity.
After a lonely vigil in the desert, he returned firmly convinced that the angel Gabriel had appeared to him in a vision and summoned him as a prophet. He was not well accepted, only thirteen followers, in his first three years. His own tribe gave his followers the despised name of Muslims, or Moslems, which at that time meant "traitors." The name, however, survived and today means "the reconciled" or "those who submit to Allah."
Mohammed needed funds and his followers were not the agricultural types. Therefore, he organized them into raiders to prey on caravans. This started Arabia's first major Holy War or Jihad. During this war, Islam spread from India through Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, North Africa, Spain, and Constantinople.
The Arabs were finally stopped at Tours, France, preventing the conquest of Europe. Islam had unknowingly strengthened the Roman Papacy by destroying Alexandria, Jerusalem, and Antioch; removing the Bishop of Carthage, and weakening the patriarchate at Constantinople. Mohammed firmly established the concept of worldly power through Jihad and, indeed, "devoured much flesh" in that pursuit! What a shame! Its concepts and ideals are so much better than what the cancerous fanatics employ to their decidedly political ends.
Personally, I think your ignorance on the topic is preceding you. I think it's rather obvious you've been fed the Fox News brownies which presume that all Muslims are terrorists and that every country that has Muslims in it also harbor terrorists. There are countries in the Middle East that are nothing like what you claim Muslim is as an entirety. I can speak from firsthand knowledge that places like Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, and even Kuwait are not nearly as backwards in their methods as you are trying to paint the whole of the Middle East and the Muslim world as.
What's interesting to note is that this very sense of ignorant foolishness is precisely the kind of temperament that absolutely enrages the people living over there. Earlier you talked about tolerance and respect but you've shown none of it. You've painted the modern-day Muslim person to be nothing better than a person who straps bombs to their chest and as another poster mentioned, you've stuck to a strict 'Wahabbi-ist' centered viewpoint based on extremely strict Shari'a law. You've ignored so many of the fundamental teachings of Muhammad Ibn Ismail al-Bukkhari whose hadith is just as profound a teaching of how to lead a proper Islamic lifestyle as any that Jesus or his disciples preached in regards to Christianity - and probably more thorough. His hadiths are a very fundamental tenant of the Sunni sect of the Islamic religion.
As well, it seems that you've also forgotten to take into context the Shi'a belief predominantly centered around The Twelve Imams which bear uncanny resemblances to the twelve disciples of Jesus. Most of their teachings, and probably the more docile of those teachings are focused more on the descendants of Muhammad in general which did do a relatively fair job at promoting peace and love themselves. However, before any of my Muslim friends jump on my back I do realize that Muhammad is the prophet most adored by the Islam religion.
Not only that, but it's amazing to me how little people see the resemblances of Islam to Christianity. Christianity has a Father, Son and Holy Ghost whereas Islam (more like Shi'a Islam) has Oneness, Justice, and Prophethood - which actually makes a little more sense if we're to talk about a trinity of sorts. Hell, the two religions are both sourced from Abraham and you worship the same god with a little different flare and a little different style. Might I also add, the same God as the Jews do as well.
Nevertheless, and all the glaring contradictions and comparisons aside, you've really failed to capture the essence of Islam with your tirade of how 'evil' they are while essentially showing your own two-sided behavior in much the same mentality that a radical Islamist may speak about the 'infidel' (which was a word commonly used by the Christian church up until rather recently to define non-believers.)
Honestly, yes, Islam has issues. Christianity has issues. Even Judaism and their less than appealing behavior in some parts of the Middle East has been rather repugnant and offsetting. But, for one to stand up on the podium and say that their religion preaches a better method because of current events is rather ridiculous. They're all guilty of horrible atrocities, stupidities, and mindless demagoguery.
Well, let's examine the claims you assert. Are there Christian suicide bombers that blow themselves up amidst populated marketplaces? No. But, I think you're also throwing the baby out with the bath water in your assertion of what 'true' Islam is as opposed to 'true' Christianity.
The discussion was never about TRUE Islam or TRUE Christianity; this discussion is about Radicals prosecuting non-believers while so-called moderates are sitting on their hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I find it interesting that your post is seemingly designed around promulgating that 'true' Islam implies atrocious acts of horrendous violence to produce some sort of serendipitous enlightenment but 'true' Christianity does not.
Again, the discussion is about radicals killing non-believers while the moderate Muslims are doing little to nothing to take back their religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Yet, even in modern days we are faced with a vast outpouring of Christian organizations that are quite hideous. I think that on a grand scale, we could look at the Catholic Church and their blatant hypocrisy in how they are still suggesting in some of the most AIDS-riddled parts of Africa that condoms are 'sinful' or in some way bad. I wonder how many people have died of AIDS as a result of this medieval thinking? Thinking, by the way, that you claim has somehow adjusted to the times.
Is it no secret that the Catholic Church is “out of touch†with the real world when it comes to this issue. It’s quite unfortunate, however, I don’t see how you can equate Islam prosecuting/extermination of non-believers with the AIDS epidemic in Africa. And do you know whether or not “only†African Christians are infected with AIDS? I have a feeling it not only African Christian, rather, the entire region, which you can blame it on the Catholic Church if you want, but you can also throw in, lack of education and poverty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Lest we also not forget Christian organizations such as the Westboro Baptist Church who have done nothing but instill hideous slander and vulgarities at a wide variety of people, constantly calling them f*gs, and protesting at soldier's funerals.
Ahh yeah, I was waiting for that one. As vile as it is, they are protected under the first amendment. Many people have tried to shut them up (Christians BTW), only to see the biggest scum organization, the ACLU to defend these morons. Their defense is, words cannot harm individuals. As long as they don’t threaten people’s lives, then our laws protect them. Besides, I’d much rather see people wishing me harm and calling me names because of my beliefs and or my life style, then to be killed, don’t you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
These are all products of the Christian faith. Yet, I think you will find it so easy to sit back and say that this does not represent 'true' Christianity and at the same time you lump suicide bombers and terrorists into a group and call it 'true' Islam. Thus, I think you are indeed throwing the baby out with the bath water in suiting your arguments only with you want to see as the truth.
Your problem is, you assume too much. Nowhere did I say ALL Muslims engage in vile actions, I merely pointed out how Christians are treated in many parts of the Islamic world while the Moderates are staying silent. FYI, many groups, including many Christian groups are reaching out to Africans by raising money to fund education, and medicine. They are also reaching out, or at least trying to reach out and stop the genocide in Darfur in the hands of Muslims extremists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Do people speak out against organizations such as the Catholic Church and the Westboro Baptist Church? Sure they do. I am one of them. And there are Muslims and former Muslims doing the same thing with their own religions - Ayaan Hirsi Ali comes to mind. Yet, it's the fate of so many societies whether they be in the Middle East or in America that have embraced their respective religions for so long that it becomes volatile to question it.
Wafa Sultan comes to mind, too, which she’s in hiding. The problem here is, when someone offend Muslims, be it cartoons, teddy bear or a book, we see mass demonstrations around the world, which includes vandalizing and targeting non-Muslims. When Islamic terrorists strike, we see couple of posting on the Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Yet, if I speak out about it, if I draw cartoons mocking this Christian God that is still bringing death and destruction and inciting hatred and vengeance around the world, I am the one who should not be doing so. I cannot make relative comparisons to the absurdities of the Christian God by making analogies to the Flying Spaghetti Monster although the evidence for both is precisely the same.
Don’t you mean Today’s radical Islam? Your description of hate, destruction, intolerance and vengeance describes what non-Muslims are going through in Islamic countries. Can Muslims make that same claim in the West? I highly doubt that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Therefore, I find your argument to be shortsighted and only set to once again incite rank, vigorous arguments in support of your very own religion. And that uncannily reminds me of the exact same thing you purport to speak out against.
I call them, as I seem them. Let me know if today’s Christians or any religion for that matter start killing their fellow countrymen globally because of their beliefs, maybe then we can talk more.
Amen. Christians are perfect in every way. They are the most peaceful religion on the planet and have never been known to do anything like this.
Never claimed that Christians are "perfect", do us a favor and stop assuming. I don't deny Christian's violent history, but unlike you, I live my life TODAY, not decades ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleatis
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Islam either (or Christianity or pretty much any religion for that matter) but Christians hardly have any room to talk about how they are a bunch of peace loving victims.
I see now, let the Christians living in the Islamic world be exterminated because of actions taken decades ago, wow, aren't you the genius one
The discussion was never about TRUE Islam or TRUE Christianity; this discussion is about Radicals prosecuting non-believers while so-called moderates are sitting on their hands.
Right. And I'm still wondering why Christian organizations around the world are not condemning the Catholic Church for their methods of proselytizing about condom usage in AIDS ridden parts of Africa. I would say this is certainly a form of radicalism that needs to be accounted for in the Christian world. In other words, moderates are sitting on their hands while this is happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Again, the discussion is about radicals killing non-believers while the moderate Muslims are doing little to nothing to take back their religion.
So, we can agree that what we might call 'moderate' Islam is actually a religion of peace?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Is it no secret that the Catholic Church is “out of touch” with the real world when it comes to this issue. It’s quite unfortunate, however, I don’t see how you can equate Islam prosecuting/extermination of non-believers with the AIDS epidemic in Africa. And do you know whether or not “only” African Christians are infected with AIDS? I have a feeling it not only African Christian, rather, the entire region, which you can blame it on the Catholic Church if you want, but you can also throw in, lack of education and poverty.
No, I'm not saying that it's only Christian Africans that are infected with AIDS. My point is that the Catholic Church sends missionaries to already diseased ridden parts of Africa and then condemns condom usage. It's kind of like walking into a hostile war zone and telling people to walk in the streets with no weapons or body armor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Ahh yeah, I was waiting for that one. As vile as it is, they are protected under the first amendment. Many people have tried to shut them up (Christians BTW), only to see the biggest scum organization, the ACLU to defend these morons. Their defense is, words cannot harm individuals. As long as they don’t threaten people’s lives, then our laws protect them. Besides, I’d much rather see people wishing me harm and calling me names because of my beliefs and or my life style, then to be killed, don’t you agree?
I hate the Westboro Baptist Church as much as the next guy but I have to honestly admit that they are protected under the First Amendment. We may all hate what they have to say but if we are to shut them up than what precedent does this set for us to have freedom of speech at all? Perhaps the next step would be keeping all Christians from talking about their religion, or maybe, keeping me from speaking out about religion. Once the precedent is set, where do we stop? Again, I'm not defending the WBC, only their right to freedom of speech - no matter how awful it may be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Your problem is, you assume too much. Nowhere did I say ALL Muslims engage in vile actions, I merely pointed out how Christians are treated in many parts of the Islamic world while the Moderates are staying silent. FYI, many groups, including many Christian groups are reaching out to Africans by raising money to fund education, and medicine. They are also reaching out, or at least trying to reach out and stop the genocide in Darfur in the hands of Muslims extremists.
I was talking not so much to you as I was another poster in what you quoted me on. I'm fully aware that Christian organizations do a lot of good in the world but at the same time they're funding education and medicine, they're telling them to abstain from using condoms. It's such a weird irony, don't you think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Wafa Sultan comes to mind, too, which she’s in hiding. The problem here is, when someone offend Muslims, be it cartoons, teddy bear or a book, we see mass demonstrations around the world, which includes vandalizing and targeting non-Muslims. When Islamic terrorists strike, we see couple of posting on the Internet.
Again, this seems to me to be more a product of the culture of the people more than a principle of Islam although the two can be hard to delineate from at times. As I mentioned before, and judging by your screen name, you seem that you may be able to account for this, but the Middle Eastern mentality, by and large, is much different than that of the West and their approach is and can be radically different than what we may see here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Don’t you mean Today’s radical Islam? Your description of hate, destruction, intolerance and vengeance describes what non-Muslims are going through in Islamic countries. Can Muslims make that same claim in the West? I highly doubt that.
You mean like what happened to Muslims in America after 9/11?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
I call them, as I seem them. Let me know if today’s Christians or any religion for that matter start killing their fellow countrymen globally because of their beliefs, maybe then we can talk more.
Alright. Northern Ireland comes to mind. So does Rwanda and the civil war between the Hutu's and the Tutsi's. Then there was Bosnia-Herzegovena with their war between Serbian Orthodoxy, Roman Catholocism, and Islam. These are all very modern-day events/wars in which other religions were rather involved in.
Right. And I'm still wondering why Christian organizations around the world are not condemning the Catholic Church for their methods of proselytizing about condom usage in AIDS ridden parts of Africa. I would say this is certainly a form of radicalism that needs to be accounted for in the Christian world. In other words, moderates are sitting on their hands while this is happening.
Your double speak is amazing . . . Westboro Baptist = freedom of speech . . . Catholics = radical terrorism . . . Muslims beheading and killing = ???? I am confused about the way that you arrive at your comparatives.
Quote:
So, we can agree that what we might call 'moderate' Islam is actually a religion of peace?
When we see demonstrations against Islamic terrorist killings even remotely similar to the ones about cartoons or teddy bears or books or . . . whatever offense they see against their Prophet . . . that would be a start.
Quote:
No, I'm not saying that it's only Christian Africans that are infected with AIDS. My point is that the Catholic Church sends missionaries to already diseased ridden parts of Africa and then condemns condom usage. It's kind of like walking into a hostile war zone and telling people to walk in the streets with no weapons or body armor.
Nonsense . . the governments refuse to educate and promote condom use . . . and the primitive cultures simply are not amenable to such hygiene tactics.
Never claimed that Christians are "perfect", do us a favor and stop assuming. I don't deny Christian's violent history, but unlike you, I live my life TODAY, not decades ago
I see now, let the Christians living in the Islamic world be exterminated because of actions taken decades ago, wow, aren't you the genius one
Killing in the name of any god is just plain wrong and never justifiable. And on that note, you can't be any more judgmental about muslims than anyone can be about christians.
I won't deny that what they are doing is wrong - it is. But you posted this as though to say that islam is a greater cancer on the planet than christianity - and that simply isn't so.
Yes, it may have been decades ago that christians have done their things, but will you be so willing to overlook these actions as trivialy as you do now in a few decades? just because it was a long tome ago doesn't make it any less wrong or trivial.
But I guess that's how it is with religion and its followers - when they do it it's bad, when I do it isn't justifiable because it was a long time ago, or the cause was misunderstood, or because there was bias or some other excuse.
And in the end and a few hundred years from now people like you and I are going to be looking at the history of all these religions and realizing them for being the greatest cause of barbarism on the whole planet and all of this crap that has come from religion will show it to be just the way we see the greek/roman gods - obsolete.
And what now? Just because Christians haven't pulled something like this for a few years doesn't make you any less liable. Each time you condemn a religion on the basis of one being better than the other you further the wall of division between humanity. And if you think that doesn't contribute to situations like these - then there is nothing more I can say as you are totally lost.
So you're right, I'm not thinking about today and the here and now - I'm thinking about tomorrow.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
