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Old 01-05-2009, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Please cite in the Quran where a woman should be killed if she is raped.

What you mentioned above is all cultural bull$hit, in reality not based in Islam.

Again, where in the Quran is it mentioned that a woman should be killed if she is raped?

Speaking of raping women, my neighbor's 4 year old niece was raped by her uncle and set on fire. And he wasn't muslim, he was Christian. Did he attempt to use religion to justify it? No. However, if he erroneously did, would you then blackball Christianity as a dirty, violent religion? No, you'd say he was a Quack.



Again, disgusting. And not based in Islam. Ignorant people, ignorant practices. Happen to be Muslim.



You have some nerve telling this poster that he will never know peace.

Oh, my God, the gall.

I don't believe YOU could be convinced, no matter what any muslim came up here and said. Your mind is clearly made up, which is good for you, but don't bring down other posters.

You have no idea the peace this person finds in his or her heart.

Good God, this is the problem with religion isn't it? Everyone thinks they have a direct line to God and the rest are going to hell!!

MrsMtn, I am wondering where you got the hadith quotes from? I just doubt you read 25 hadith books to pull these gems out of them, your post just reeks of cut and paste from another source.

I am interested in the original source, if you can provide it. (and if it is a book, which one, if you don't mind.)
Your quote:What you mentioned above is all cultural bull$hit, in reality not based in Islam.

You don't see any other culture doing this but Islam. Get your head out of the sand. There are not one or two examples but THOUSANDS and they are all Muslims.


Your quote: Again, disgusting. And not based in Islam. Ignorant people, ignorant practices. Happen to be Muslim.

You are right.....thousands upon thousands of honor killings just happen to be Muslim.

Your quote: Again, where in the Quran is it mentioned that a woman should be killed if she is raped?

It does not have to be in the Quran for people to do it. I believe the examples of the people themselves are proof enough that it does occur regardless of whether it is religious or cultural.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:40 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post

It does not have to be in the Quran for people to do it. I believe the examples of the people themselves are proof enough that it does occur regardless of whether it is religious or cultural.
It certainly does if you want to call it "Islamic"

Thousands upon thousands of honor killings? Where are you getting this statistic from? And what time period?

Thanks.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
It certainly does if you want to call it "Islamic"

Thousands upon thousands of honor killings? Where are you getting this statistic from? And what time period?

Thanks.
I don't have to describe a red, white and blue flag in the constitution to know it is American.

Like I said get your head out of the sand. These are Islamic people who are admitting to killing their own children. It is not hidden, they are very open about it.

Honor killings: When the ancient and the modern collide
Honor killings persist in 'man's world' - World Blog - msnbc.com
Barbaric 'honour killings' become the weapon to subjugate women in Iraq - Middle East, World - The Independent
The Death of a Muslim Woman: "The ***** Lived Like a German" - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
FOXNews.com - Murder in the Family: Honor Killings in America - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
'Honor' killing comes to the US - The Boston Globe
Gendercide Watch: "Honour" Killings and Blood Feuds
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002
Reputation Is Everything: Honor Killings Among the Palestinians

In all of articles it stresses that these are are Muslim women.

One article says:
Since Islam is used as the justification for such barbarities, it becomes incumbent upon Muslim spokesmen to confront this directly, and to work for positive change, rather than simply to consign it all to culture, as if that absolves Islam from all responsibility. For this is the culture that apparently gave Yaser Said and Muhammad Parvez the idea that they had to kill their daughters. It is a culture suffused with its religion, thoroughly dominated by it -- such that a clear distinction between the two is not so easy to find.
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:42 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
I don't have to describe a red, white and blue flag in the constitution to know it is American.

Like I said get your head out of the sand. These are Islamic people who are admitting to killing their own children. It is not hidden, they are very open about it.

Honor killings: When the ancient and the modern collide
Honor killings persist in 'man's world' - World Blog - msnbc.com
Barbaric 'honour killings' become the weapon to subjugate women in Iraq - Middle East, World - The Independent
The Death of a Muslim Woman: "The ***** Lived Like a German" - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
FOXNews.com - Murder in the Family: Honor Killings in America - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News
'Honor' killing comes to the US - The Boston Globe
Gendercide Watch: "Honour" Killings and Blood Feuds
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002
Reputation Is Everything: Honor Killings Among the Palestinians

In all of articles it stresses that these are are Muslim women.

One article says:
Since Islam is used as the justification for such barbarities, it becomes incumbent upon Muslim spokesmen to confront this directly, and to work for positive change, rather than simply to consign it all to culture, as if that absolves Islam from all responsibility. For this is the culture that apparently gave Yaser Said and Muhammad Parvez the idea that they had to kill their daughters. It is a culture suffused with its religion, thoroughly dominated by it -- such that a clear distinction between the two is not so easy to find.

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there does it make a sound? Of course.

If muslims speak out against honor killings and YOU don't hear it, did they not speak out? of course not.

Muslims speak out against such incidents.

However, Muslims speaking out against such incidents will do nothing if governments don't make harsher penalties for ignorant people who commit such crimes.

And no, I am not going to spend the afternoon researching the progress or lack thereof made by Muslim countries regarding their laws on the matter.

Here are a few articles on the matter quickly found on the internet:

Lebanon's top Shiite Muslim cleric bans honor killings - International Herald Tribune

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1168265536796&pagename=Z one-English-News/NWELayout (broken link)

A Muslim campaign against honor killings « Refugee Resettlement Watch

A Syrian Government Media Campaign Against 'Honor Killings'

VOA News - Fatwa Against Honor Killings (http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/2007-08-13-voa3.cfm - broken link)
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,313 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there does it make a sound? Of course.

If muslims speak out against honor killings and YOU don't hear it, did they not speak out? of course not.

Muslims speak out against such incidents.

However, Muslims speaking out against such incidents will do nothing if governments don't make harsher penalties for ignorant people who commit such crimes.

And no, I am not going to spend the afternoon researching the progress or lack thereof made by Muslim countries regarding their laws on the matter.

Here are a few articles on the matter quickly found on the internet:

Lebanon's top Shiite Muslim cleric bans honor killings - International Herald Tribune

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1168265536796&pagename=Z one-English-News/NWELayout (broken link)

A Muslim campaign against honor killings « Refugee Resettlement Watch

A Syrian Government Media Campaign Against 'Honor Killings'

VOA News - Fatwa Against Honor Killings (http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/2007-08-13-voa3.cfm - broken link)
Just because they are finally speaking out against it (and I am glad they are) does not mean that honor killings aren't tied directly to Islam. The fact that they are addressing it means they are owning up to it, not denying it.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:02 PM
 
Location: mass
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They are not owning up to it, they are speaking out against it because it is not Islamic yet it is happening by muslims!

First you quote something that says it is basically a cultural thing but muslims need to speak out against it anyway because it is being committed by muslims, then you say they are speaking out against it because they are "owning" up to it. It doesn't go both ways.

Again, if it is not in the Quran or Sunnah, it is not islamic.

How many Christians out there are having sex outside of marriage? Because they are doing it is it a Christian thing to do? NO.

Just because some Muslims are committing the CRIME, punishable by God, of honor killing, doesn't make it ISLAMIC.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,313 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
They are not owning up to it, they are speaking out against it because it is not Islamic yet it is happening by muslims!

First you quote something that says it is basically a cultural thing but muslims need to speak out against it anyway because it is being committed by muslims, then you say they are speaking out against it because they are "owning" up to it. It doesn't go both ways.

Again, if it is not in the Quran or Sunnah, it is not islamic.

How many Christians out there are having sex outside of marriage? Because they are doing it is it a Christian thing to do? NO.

Just because some Muslims are committing the CRIME, punishable by God, of honor killing, doesn't make it ISLAMIC.
Like the article says,

Since Islam is used as the justification for such barbarities, it becomes incumbent upon Muslim spokesmen to confront this directly, and to work for positive change, rather than simply to consign it all to culture, as if that absolves Islam from all responsibility. For this is the culture that apparently gave Yaser Said and Muhammad Parvez the idea that they had to kill their daughters. It is a culture suffused with its religion, thoroughly dominated by it -- such that a clear distinction between the two is not so easy to find.

You are the only who thinks that Islam is not involved in it. I guess the whole world is wrong. Take off the rose colored glasses.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
Reputation: 4979
Whatever.


I think we'll find there are plenty of people that agree with you, and then again plenty of people that agree with me. Sorry but I'm not "the only one".

There are several in this thread that would agree with me not you, and/or those that have rep'd me for my comments. So a statement like "you are the only one" is idiotic.

Say what you want to say.

Look, Islam is involved in this only insofar as it requires men and women be modest, chaste, and pure. And so for the last 1,000 plus years, women and men have been taught since an early age to be pure modest and chaste. This has become ingrained in society, and has become a societal norm.

Then comes modern times. Are women and men modest chaste and pure? Not all the time. Throw a bunch of village ignorance on top of that and you get morons who think they need to kill their daughter that isn't a "virgin" anymore because she was raped or had sex with someone. Because for the last 1,000 plus years the norms of society have been for them to be pure chaste and modest. At this point, it is, yes a cultural thing. There is no basis for it in Islam and nowhere in the Quran is it allowed.

So, in light of this, if you insist on blaming "Islam", then there is nothing I can say to you to change your mind. I blame the ignorant, crazy bastards that commit the crimes and seem to have rationalized it somehow. Because, no matter what you say, only a crazy son of a bi*ch would actually kill his daughter. You'd have to be nuts to actually think that was a good course of action. (speaking of killing one's kids, my we do see that on the news here quite frequently, don't we? But I guess we are better because here in the US they aren't doing it in the name of religion, they are doing it for other reasons, so that's ok, plus, we'd call these people here crazy, when it happens somewhere else, they are perfectly sane and it is all the religion's fault, right???)

You think what you want and I'll think what I want, and we'll let other readers make up their own minds.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,469,292 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
And congrats to all of you for criticizing someone who obviously has limited knowledge of the English language. Perhaps he/she would be a little more eloquent in his/her native tongue.

Be cautious when jumping on words of people who are not fluent in our language. It is very easy for them to say something which they did not entirely mean, and for you to easily misinterpret what they are saying (and compound this with the fact that we are reading and not speaking, therefore we miss out on tone of voice and facial expression.)
You are correct in this comment and also that the entirety of Islam is not evil, but in the Old Testament there are many cruel punishments and people just ignore them.

Nobody in a civilized county would stone a child for disobeying his parent, and if he tried the parent would be taken to court.

No civilized person calls another person evil or threatens that God will punish them because they are of another religion or because they mock the religion. Islam does.

There is not much that I know of as cruel as Sharia law which is the interpretation of the Koran by supposedly wise old men.

Surely you must know that it is Sharia and the countries that follow it that people find so horrible, and Sharia is supposed to be totally following the will of God.

I am surprised that you are shocked at all of this.
We know them by their fruits.
If a religion inspires and creates cruelty, then there is something wrong with that religion to my mind.

Christianity used to behave badly, but it changed.
It is time for Islam, too, to prove itself worthy of taking a place next to other religions and cast off and disown the violence perpetrated in its name.

Frankly, I think the problem is because Christianity is not an official part of government in most countries, so when the country is wrong people feel much more freedom to criticize.

In Islam the religion dictates everything, including the law and commerce. So in such countries people often have no recourse and if they disagree with the government their enemies are not coaxed into civil discourse, the conversation can easily become heated and the person condemned because they are not defying man's law, but God's.

From most posts here, it seems that people from Islamic cultures have a sincere difficulty in understanding the separation of church and state, that the laws of a country can and often should, be changed. That a person can be a member of most religions and not agree with everything that religion teaches. That a person can live freely in a society and choose not to be a member of any religion at all and still be respected. That even people who are religious, most of them, do not believe that theirs is the only religion, that all others of different faiths will be destroyed, that those who criticize the religion are necessarily ungodly and should be destroyed and threatened.

For goodness' sake, what OTHER religion in modern days, has RELIGIOUS leaders placing fatwas on people, calling for all good Muslims to kill them? How can people, if they have freedom of choice, stay in such a religion?

In a free society there will be many that make bad decisions. There will be more crime, perhaps. There will be more sexual freedom. A person is, within limits, free to figure things out for himself, to make mistakes and self-correct.

Wives are under no obligation to agree with their husbands. Children can tell their parents that they are wrong and await the time when they are old enough to be free of them. And sometimes those kids are right, the parents are clods. Women marry and divorce whom they choose. They drive. They do not require escorts. They dress pretty much as they please. Men are forced to deal with their own sexual problems rather than dictate that women must cover themselves.

Again, it is the fruits of Islam that we react to. The way it is interpreted under Sharia, and not only that there are nasty things in the Koran.

Not that the ideas are the same, but the stifling of the individual, the training of young minds to think only in certain ways with the threat of punishment, I just find repulsive - this happened under Nazi rule and it happens in the US in some places thick with certain fundamentalist religions.

You certainly are capable of seeing how a western mind would find such countries stifling and oppressive.

Punishing the victims of rape seems to happen in these countries on a fairly regular basis. I think it is to discourage people from reporting rapes because a good religious country should not be having such things to happen. The idea that women should be covered and escorted implies to me that these men are emotionally immature and have no self control.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,469,292 times
Reputation: 8776
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
They are not owning up to it, they are speaking out against it because it is not Islamic yet it is happening by muslims!

First you quote something that says it is basically a cultural thing but muslims need to speak out against it anyway because it is being committed by muslims, then you say they are speaking out against it because they are "owning" up to it. It doesn't go both ways.

Again, if it is not in the Quran or Sunnah, it is not islamic.

How many Christians out there are having sex outside of marriage? Because they are doing it is it a Christian thing to do? NO.

Just because some Muslims are committing the CRIME, punishable by God, of honor killing, doesn't make it ISLAMIC.
Oh, goodness. You cannot be equating sex with death.
Governments should not be allowing these things to happen.
In many Islamic countries the law is supposed to be from the Koran, and I think there are many in those countries who live in fear and oppression and are just terrified of being found out or of speaking out.

The reason people think it is Islamic is because those countries identify themselves as such and live under religious law - law which they say is Islamic.
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