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Old 12-15-2008, 12:38 AM
 
Location: mass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I have no idea what "sin" has to do with it, but as far as I know Islam is the only religion that mutilates females in this way. It may not be obligatory, but why don't you tell that to the 4 and 5 year old children that are butchered...Out of the 96% of the women in Egypt that have had it done to them, how many do you think make this choice for themselves? In my opinion it is child abuse of the worst kind, and it is beyond me how anyone can possibly defend it.
Well you were wrong, and I am glad to see that you have see how you were misinformed. I myself just don't understand how someone can argue a point though, without full information, honestly. When we attack what we don't understand, and spread false information about a group of people, it benefits no one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
elwill, I owe you an apology...I have been misinformed, but through this conversation with you I have learned much. Even though I detest FGM I cannot put the blame entirely on Islam, although it seems that many Muslims have adopted the practice.

FGM: A cultural not a religious practice:

This mutilating operation is often associated mainly with the religion of Islam. This is incorrect. FGM is primarily a social practice, not a religious one. Female genital mutilation predated Islam. It originated in Africa and remains today a mainly African cultural practice. Some indicators of this are:
* It is widely practiced in countries where the predominant religion is Christianity: Examples are Ethiopia and Kenya.
* In multi-faith countries, it is often forced on girls whose families follow all faiths: Animism religions, Christianity, and Islam. For example, it is frequently practiced among both Muslims, Christians and Animists in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sierra Leone, and Sudan. 1
* FGM was once practiced by Ethiopian Jews (a.k.a. Beta Isreal; formerly known by the derogatory term "Falashas"). 2, 3, 4.5 This practiced was apparently discontinued some time ago. A pediatrician who works in the Beta Israel community claims that they no do not practice FGM in Israel. Also, their daughters who were born in Ethiopia were not mutilated. 6
* FGM has spread to countries in or near Africa (e.g. Egypt) which are Muslim. But FGM is rare or nonexistent in many other Muslim countries. Examples are Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Turkey. Also, It is not done in the Maghreb countries of Northwest Africa.
* FGM is only occasionally found in Indonesia and other predominately Muslim countries in Asia.

One of the motivations for this essay is the misperception by many people that the practice is a religious one. That belief has led to unjustified religious intolerance against Muslims.


FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION FEMALE (CIRCUMCISION) IN AFRICA, MIDDLE EAST AND FAR EAST
even wikipedia:
The traditional cultural practice of FGC predates both Islam and Christianity. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[34] While the spread of the practice of FGC is unknown, the procedure is now practiced among Muslims and Animists.[35]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
i don't know? But if it isn't, why isn't it committed against males?
Look spindle, you are talking about very conservative society here. Girls are precious, and family honor is precious. And there certainly is an element of sexism in the culture. (Not the religion, as we see above honor killing is not based in religion)

Islam is not the only religion to cause people to act this way. (And I am not saying that bad actions by people are justified by their religions, but that people sometimes in the name of their religion, make choices that are not sanctioned by that religion). Anyway, Islam is not the only religion this has happened in, maybe the only one in modern times, but not the only one by any stretch.

There was a time, yes, *gasp*, that pregnant, unmarried women were cast out of their family homes. Here in the dear old US of A. My grandfather was the illegitimate child of one such woman. My great grandmother was from a family of high society in New Hampshire, she got pregnant and was thrown out of her home. She moved, lived on her own, had her baby, struggled, and died of Pneumonia on Christmas Eve when my grandfather was 5 years old. He was an orphan and was adopted by a couple that owned a farm. My mother says a Christmas Eve never passed when my grandfather was not sullen and depressed.

Hell even one of the mothers on Desperate Housewives sent her knocked up daughter off to a monastery to have the baby, and pretended that she was pregnant herself so no one would know her daughter was knocked up!!

So, we punish girls, or we did before at least. No, we didn't kill them, just threw them out of the house and disowned them. Yes, this really no longer happens. Why? Sex before marriage is basically a given here, with abstinence the exception. You must realize that this is not the way of every other culture. Abstinence and virginity are held in high regard other places, particularly religious ones, or places where religion is still dominant.

Why females and not males you ask?

I imagine two reasons (at least, and this is off the cuff)
1.) there is evidence, at least some of the time, of a girls losing her virginity on the wedding night, i.e. if there is blood, she most probably was a virgin and if not she might have been or she might not have, whose to know?
and 2.) an unmarried girl who is sexually active could end up pregnant, visibly guilty of doing something she shouldn't be doing, according to society, bringing shame on herself and her family.

Meanwhile, unmarried boys and men can get away with much, much, more because most of the time there will be no proof they did anything.......... And even if they were caught, I think there is a perception that men have a much greater sex drive than women, and if a man is out screwing around, he just couldn't control himself, whereas if a woman is having pre-marital sex, it's just uncalled for and she definitely knew what she was doing and could have controlled herself. Sexist, absolutely!!

Thus the girls are more important when it comes to upholding a family's respectability.

Islam is a very strict religion, there is no arguing that. Behavior expected of individuals is clearly laid out. Each individual is accountable for his or her own actions, and everyone will be judged on the day of judgment based on those actions. It is not like in Christianity, where it is believed that Jesus died to absolve everyone of all their sins, therefore no matter what they do they are assured of their place in Heaven. Muslims have to earn that, and sins and good deeds are measured. It is a religion of accountability.

Regarding honor killings, they are unIslamic. Elwill was asking for anyone to prove, using the Quran or the hadith, which are sayings and actions of the prophet Mohammed, to prove that honor killings are allowed in Islam, and I do not think that anyone will be able to do so.

Unfortunately, though, as respectability is so important to families, these honor killings do occur. They are unjust and unIslamic, but they do occur. It is very disturbing.

I do believe there are other types of honor killings, involving people of other faiths, but they are not identified as "honor killings", when things that occur that might be an honor killing in the US, we are more likely to call it the actions of a crazy person. Well, don't you think that these fathers that are drowning their daughters in the Middle East in family swimming pools are crazy too? I mean, really. Something has to be wrong with you if you murder your kid in your family's swimming pool......

I agree that ppl shouldn't be named in a thread, just start the thread and DM them to see if they wish to participate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Egypt has one of the highest FGM rates in the world. According to a 2005 study conducted by UNICEF, 96 percent of women between the ages of 15 to 49 who had ever been married are circumcised. A recent study by the country's Ministry of Health and Population also found that 50.3 percent of girls between the ages of 10 and 18 had been circumcised.

International Campaign Against Honour Killings › News › Egypt's child protection law sparks controversy
You know, I have read this before. And frankly it shocked me and I hardly believe it. I would like to see the percentage of the 15 year olds vs. the 49 year olds, but w/the overall percentage being 96 there wouldn't be much difference. My DH is from Egypt, and all of the women in his family are highly educated. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc..... and to my knowledge they are not circumcised in any way. However, in all honesty, it is not something I have asked them about. You remind me to have a conversation with my mother in law about this, or my father in law when he gets here in a few months. Because I have a feeling this can be attributed to lack of education, to start with, than anything else. Then custom, not religion.
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Old 12-15-2008, 12:47 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
It is pretty well know that Muslim women are oppressed...Islam is a patriarchy.
When did women get the right to vote in the United States?
1920?

If what you say is true, then it is not by Islam, but culture.

Pakistan, a muslim country, has had a female leader, (even if she was assassinated) and we have not.


opressed:
1 archaic : suppress b: to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority
2: to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon

I am sorry but I do believe that we still have oppressed women in this country. It may not be widespread or recognized, but it exists here too.
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Old 12-15-2008, 01:54 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
Reputation: 161
thank you for your supporting mommy , you illustrated many points very well , it was hard for me to illustrate my point as you did


Quote:
Why females and not males you ask?

I imagine two reasons (at least, and this is off the cuff)
1.) there is evidence, at least some of the time, of a girls losing her virginity on the wedding night, i.e. if there is blood, she most probably was a virgin and if not she might have been or she might not have, whose to know?
and 2.) an unmarried girl who is sexually active could end up pregnant, visibly guilty of doing something she shouldn't be doing, according to society, bringing shame on herself and her family.
Meanwhile, unmarried boys and men can get away with much, much, more because most of the time there will be no proof they did anything.......... And even if they were caught, I think there is a perception that men have a much greater sex drive than women, and if a man is out screwing around, he just couldn't control himself, whereas if a woman is having pre-marital sex, it's just uncalled for and she definitely knew what she was doing and could have controlled herself. Sexist, absolutely!!

Thus the girls are more important when it comes to upholding a family's respectability.
that's exactly what i meant in my response , this is the main reasons which raised such culture against females


Quote:
Islam is a very strict religion, there is no arguing that. Behavior expected of individuals is clearly laid out. Each individual is accountable for his or her own actions, and everyone will be judged on the day of judgment based on those actions. It is not like in Christianity, where it is believed that Jesus died to absolve everyone of all their sins, therefore no matter what they do they are assured of their place in Heaven. Muslims have to earn that, and sins and good deeds are measured. It is a religion of accountability.


you covered very important point here , really you understand the spirit of islam very well
sometimes christians ask me if muslims 100% sure that they will enter paradise
i responds saying no i'm not sure if my deeds are sufficient to enter me to paradise , but i'm trying as possile as i can and pray God to keep me straight in his way

i liked this expression very much " relegion of accountability"

if i'm very sure that i will get to paradise easily by just faiht , why then i will strive hard to obey my God !!!!!!
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Old 12-15-2008, 04:37 AM
 
787 posts, read 1,546,493 times
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Quote:
i meant hymen
oh ok. But who looks at their girls hymen?!

Quote:
Look spindle, you are talking about very conservative society here. Girls are precious, and family honor is precious. And there certainly is an element of sexism in the culture. (Not the religion, as we see above honor killing is not based in religion)
sorry, I should have made my position more clear: i wasn't associating it with Islam and I know it's a different culture to here in the west, i was simply asking elwill about it as he/she is exposed the culture. Personally, if one of the two committing adultery were to blame, I would assume the male is more accountable as he will likely be physically stronger and more able to force a female into it.
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Old 12-15-2008, 05:35 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
oh ok. But who looks at their girls hymen?!
i will quote the answer from mommytotwo

there is evidence, at least some of the time, if a girls losing her virginity on the wedding night, i.e. if there is blood, she most probably was a virgin


Quote:
sorry, I should have made my position more clear: i wasn't associating it with Islam and I know it's a different culture to here in the west, i was simply asking elwill about it as he/she is exposed the culture. Personally, if one of the two committing adultery were to blame, I would assume the male is more accountable as he will likely be physically stronger and more able to force a female into it.
yes , man is strongest
he will be more accountable if he raped her , i agree with you

but i'm not talking about rape here , i'm talking about sinfull women not the innocent ones
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Old 12-15-2008, 07:06 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
Personally, if one of the two committing adultery were to blame, I would assume the male is more accountable as he will likely be physically stronger and more able to force a female into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
but i'm not talking about rape here , i'm talking about sinfull women not the innocent ones
Yes, a man is definitely stronger, but in cases of consent, it's irrelevant. My husband is stronger than me but, but so what?

But, Elwill, I agree with Spindle in the respect that on the part of men, there may be more coercion or psychological convincing. Have you heard the expression "he'll do anything to get into her pants"? On the other hand, women can also be more conniving if they really set out to be so, but I think more scheming for sex comes from the men.
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:05 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Yes, a man is definitely stronger, but in cases of consent, it's irrelevant. My husband is stronger than me but, but so what?

But, Elwill, I agree with Spindle in the respect that on the part of men, there may be more coercion or psychological convincing. Have you heard the expression "he'll do anything to get into her pants"? On the other hand, women can also be more conniving if they really set out to be so, but I think more scheming for sex comes from the men.
yes i heared about that
and he will suceed if female responding to him gradually , so that females should to be care about herself and should to put limitation within her relationships
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,507,619 times
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This honour stuff is it in the Koran?; that's not where I've seen it, and I haven 't perceived it's written there too.

or Is it more in the Bible? The way I understood it; it's that the Muslim world is demoralized from its own religious ethics of referal to holy writings that they get the preferance of the Bilble as a jealousy convincing alternative.

Incidentally, I have come to read a Koran from time to time I've picked up three years ago at a barber shop. It may consider me to be a blasphemer. I get a charge out of this.


Now the women don't want ME.

Last edited by tgnostic; 12-15-2008 at 10:43 AM.. Reason: forgot a word of honesty. correct spelling.
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Old 12-15-2008, 05:43 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgnostic View Post
This honour stuff is it in the Koran?; that's not where I've seen it, and I haven 't perceived it's written there too.

or Is it more in the Bible? The way I understood it; it's that the Muslim world is demoralized from its own religious ethics of referal to holy writings that they get the preferance of the Bilble as a jealousy convincing alternative.

Incidentally, I have come to read a Koran from time to time I've picked up three years ago at a barber shop. It may consider me to be a blasphemer. I get a charge out of this.


Now the women don't want ME.
What?!?!

No, it is not in the Quran.

I cannot really understand what you are trying to say beyond that.
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Old 12-15-2008, 10:52 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
What?!?!

No, it is not in the Quran.

I cannot really understand what you are trying to say beyond that.
i'm not sure either from what he trying to say
but i think he wanna to say that if honour killing be influencd by any relegion , so this relegion is christianity not islam because we can find it in bible not quran
he think that may be christians holybooks influnced the arab as whole with this culture , but when arabs become muslims in majority , the culture attached to islam
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