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Old 12-30-2008, 11:14 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
Reputation: 161

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
then perhaps they should not complain when Israel attacks and civilians are killed?

there are always alternatives to fighting, but since both sides like to bomb each other mercilessly, they will achieve nothing but harming each other.
actually this is the point where i tried to lead you to

you either shouldn't complain when phalstinians bomb thier enemy even by sacrificing ( they dosn't have effective weapons to fight )

i condemned the terrorist acts as you does , but these which happenes within wars not suitable or common place to talking about terrorism

if you wanna to talking about terrorism within wars , so compare it between two sides
compare between death of phalastinians civilians and israili's one ?
asks yourself , did phalstine satart sacrificing without reasons ?
who is the guilty one in the first place ? (read the history from the beginning)


afterall , i know from where the confusion coming from , you can find sacrificing is easily between muslims , and i agree.
that's because muslims have very strong faith and very strong trust in thier relegion which you can never imagine , you can say that muslims dosn't fear the death (we consider this whole life as a test ).

but somehow some muslims be deceived to use this power of faith in vain and against the teaching of islam ( and that is what i condemn)

i hope if my view more clear now , i guess
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,875 posts, read 31,754,043 times
Reputation: 12622
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
actually this is the point where i tried to lead you to

you either shouldn't complain when phalstinians bomb thier enemy even by sacrificing ( they dosn't have effective weapons to fight )

i condemned the terrorist acts as you does , but these which happenes within wars not suitable or common place to talking about terrorism

if you wanna to talking about terrorism within wars , so compare it between two sides
compare between death of phalastinians civilians and israili's one ?
asks yourself , did phalstine satart sacrificing without reasons ?
who is the guilty one in the first place ? (read the history from the beginning)


afterall , i know from where the confusion coming from , you can find sacrificing is easily between muslims , and i agree.
that's because muslims have very strong faith and very strong trust in thier relegion which you can never imagine , you can say that muslims dosn't fear the death (we consider this whole life as a test ).

but somehow some muslims be deceived to use this power of faith in vain and against the teaching of islam ( and that is what i condemn)

i hope if my view more clear now , i guess
When Hamas began flinging rockets at Israel they were not targeting the military. They were targeting civilians. These unprovoked attacks cannot be called war. It is pure and shameful terrorism and had they not done that bombs would not be falling in Gaza. I think it is like disturbing a wasp nest with a short stick....Pretty darned stupid.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:17 AM
 
787 posts, read 1,546,493 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
actually this is the point where i tried to lead you to

you either shouldn't complain when phalstinians bomb thier enemy even by sacrificing ( they dosn't have effective weapons to fight )

i condemned the terrorist acts as you does , but these which happenes within wars not suitable or common place to talking about terrorism

if you wanna to talking about terrorism within wars , so compare it between two sides
compare between death of phalastinians civilians and israili's one ?
asks yourself , did phalstine satart sacrificing without reasons ?
who is the guilty one in the first place ? (read the history from the beginning)


afterall , i know from where the confusion coming from , you can find sacrificing is easily between muslims , and i agree.
that's because muslims have very strong faith and very strong trust in thier relegion which you can never imagine , you can say that muslims dosn't fear the death (we consider this whole life as a test ).

but somehow some muslims be deceived to use this power of faith in vain and against the teaching of islam ( and that is what i condemn)

i hope if my view more clear now , i guess
oh i'm not complaining. In my opinion, both sides are just as bad as each other. One uses people and the other uses sophisticated bombs and both cause civilian casualties.
But this also comes back to what you were saying in this or another thread about the Islamic faith saying they must defend themselves. Right now, both sides are "defending themselves." All it is doing is causing a constant fight where innocent people are being killed over a concern about land and borders.
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Old 12-31-2008, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,618 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
When Hamas began flinging rockets at Israel they were not targeting the military. They were targeting civilians. These unprovoked attacks cannot be called war. It is pure and shameful terrorism and had they not done that bombs would not be falling in Gaza. I think it is like disturbing a wasp nest with a short stick....Pretty darned stupid.
That is why Hamas is on every terrorist list in the world. They target civilians, they hide behind civilians and they use civilians for their suicide bombs.
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Old 12-31-2008, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,618 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
oh i'm not complaining. In my opinion, both sides are just as bad as each other. One uses people and the other uses sophisticated bombs and both cause civilian casualties.
But this also comes back to what you were saying in this or another thread about the Islamic faith saying they must defend themselves. Right now, both sides are "defending themselves." All it is doing is causing a constant fight where innocent people are being killed over a concern about land and borders.
I follow the news pretty well, both here in the states and Israeli news and from what I can see, no matter how much land Israel gives up, Hamas and other terrorists are not satisfied until they wipe Israel off the face of the map and have said so. They will continue to fire rockets into civilian neighborhoods to stir up the hornets nest until an all out war ensues. They do not want peace, they are greedy and they want the whole territory.
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,473,051 times
Reputation: 8776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
oh i'm not complaining. In my opinion, both sides are just as bad as each other. One uses people and the other uses sophisticated bombs and both cause civilian casualties.
But this also comes back to what you were saying in this or another thread about the Islamic faith saying they must defend themselves. Right now, both sides are "defending themselves." All it is doing is causing a constant fight where innocent people are being killed over a concern about land and borders.
Two very stubborn peoples. Both of their religions teach 'an eye for an eye', which is a horrid concept to rear children by when we are living in such dangerous times. There are even stupid Christians being dragged into this, through Hagee's group.

But the vast majority of Jews fighting in Israel, I am told, are secular and not religious. In fact, there are a considerable number of Orthodox Jews who do not believe that the current Israel is anything other than a secular state and that it does not fulfill the prophecy of their religion.

I am disgusted by the entire situation and wish we would just keep out of it. It is not my war and I can see 'right' on both sides, so to me there is not one side which is without blame.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,875 posts, read 31,754,043 times
Reputation: 12622
Added to all the other strife we seem to have Muslims constantly killing other Muslims.

A female suicide bomber blew herself up yesterday among a crowd of pilgrims worshipping at a revered Shia shrine in northern Baghdad, killing at least 38 people and wounding about 72, the Iraqi army and police said

Suicide bomber kills 38 pilgrims at Shia shrine in Baghdad | World news | The Guardian
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:52 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
No, I think Islam pretty much takes the cake on this one. Muslim/Islam is the most violent religion in the world. I also don't think it is fair that a woman is murdered by Islamic courts when she is gang raped by Muslim men. Here's a few fine examples of sick minds.

Sick minds at work.
Please cite in the Quran where a woman should be killed if she is raped.

What you mentioned above is all cultural bull$hit, in reality not based in Islam.

Again, where in the Quran is it mentioned that a woman should be killed if she is raped?

Speaking of raping women, my neighbor's 4 year old niece was raped by her uncle and set on fire. And he wasn't muslim, he was Christian. Did he attempt to use religion to justify it? No. However, if he erroneously did, would you then blackball Christianity as a dirty, violent religion? No, you'd say he was a Quack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Forgot about this one.

Even more horrifically, a four-year-old Palestinian girl, raped by a man in his mid-twenties, was left by her family to bleed to death. They did this because they felt her misfortune would sully their honor.

Women often accept their fate and expect to be executed, even in the case of incest and rape. "They have to kill us," exclaims Ritza, a middle-aged Palestinian woman, "to keep others from doing wrong. It is the law of our society." It is hard to grasp the logic. Girls, feeling they are ruined by scandal, go submissively to the slaughter. Such is the power of culture that has conditioned both victim and killer to accept their roles. "He had no choice but to kill her," says Rateb, whose son killed his sixteen-year-old sister after she was raped. "He was tormented. The community was persecuting him because of what his sister did. Her death has helped to wash away his shame."

The question should be why does the rapist have more rights than the victim? And why is the murderers feelings more important than the sister, mother, aunt who is being victimized?
Again, disgusting. And not based in Islam. Ignorant people, ignorant practices. Happen to be Muslim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
You, my friend are deceived in a great way. You hold the burden of proof and you cannot even convince others that your religion is peaceful, so how can you deep down inside feel at peace with yourself and Islam?

Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Do you know this kind of peace? It passes ALL understanding. It isn't confusing, neither will it ever contradict itself. You won't find it in Islam or any other religion for that matter. You will only find it in a personal relationship with YHWH, the creator of the Universe by way of his Son, Yeshua (Jesus) who sacrificed His life so you could be in a right relationship with the Father.

Until you do this, you will NEVER really know peace and no matter how many times you debate or try to justify your religion, you will never quite come to terms with why you still feel so empty inside.
You have some nerve telling this poster that he will never know peace.

Oh, my God, the gall.

I don't believe YOU could be convinced, no matter what any muslim came up here and said. Your mind is clearly made up, which is good for you, but don't bring down other posters.

You have no idea the peace this person finds in his or her heart.

Good God, this is the problem with religion isn't it? Everyone thinks they have a direct line to God and the rest are going to hell!!

MrsMtn, I am wondering where you got the hadith quotes from? I just doubt you read 25 hadith books to pull these gems out of them, your post just reeks of cut and paste from another source.

I am interested in the original source, if you can provide it. (and if it is a book, which one, if you don't mind.)
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:53 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,086 times
Reputation: 4979
And congrats to all of you for criticizing someone who obviously has limited knowledge of the English language. Perhaps he/she would be a little more eloquent in his/her native tongue.

Be cautious when jumping on words of people who are not fluent in our language. It is very easy for them to say something which they did not entirely mean, and for you to easily misinterpret what they are saying (and compound this with the fact that we are reading and not speaking, therefore we miss out on tone of voice and facial expression.)
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:56 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 22,014,596 times
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Brain-washing from birth, a lack of education and access to modern thinking for many and of course it keeps the female population in check which let's face it is pretty good for many men... An empowered educated, free woman is a very scary prospect for many men, even those of the Christian persuasion.


Christianity had some pretty gruesome treatments being meted out to women who were perceived to have "strayed" and until recently the lives of women in the West was pretty tough too, we were considered less than humans in many respects. We had to fight for the vote and that was probably the least of the wrongs perpetrated upon us. Men in Christian countries used to be able to punish and beat their wives, rape them quite legally, punish them for being a "scorn" ( ie having an opinion which might differ from the great god which is the male) and have them committed to insane asylums if they objected to being cheated on.

Islam has been high-jacked just as much as the Bible and the people at the bottom are the ones who suffer.

I know many Islamic Scholars and they ALL totally reject "honour killing" and I feel desperately sad that yet another religion is being used to justify terrible acts , and being used and abused by people with a political rather than spiritual agenda. A small minority of people has become the very vocal mouthpiece for a religion which is NOT about honour killings and terrorism.

The very vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people not monsters waiting to detonate bombs. The fundamentalists have only gained ground because certain world events have radicalised some people who would quite frankly rather be ploughing their fields, being fishermen and getting on with their lives with their loved ones.

It is nothing short than a way to control and "manage" and those with little to no education and living in utter poverty and deprivation are far more likely to give in to those barbaric practices.

When Muslim countries truly prosper and modern thinking becomes a bit more prevalent ( as has happened with Western countries)the fundamentalism and extremism which has blighted some aspects of Islam will slowly fade away.


Human rights tend to be a bit of a luxury when you haven't got anything to eat and your house is constantly being bombed...


Political stability and prosperity raise not only living standards but awareness of human rights abuses. Which is why it is in our interest too to work towards that goal. Afghanistan had a few golden years in the relatively recent past with a high level of literacy and female education but after being destabilised it lost its way. This goes for Iran too. Britain is full of highly educated Iranians and Iraqis who escaped when it all went pear shaped. Including Doctors Surgeons, Lawyers, Professors, Artists, Writers, Scientists etc.... Their education made them a great asset to us all and their Islamic faith has not prevented them from being intellectually developed, but world events destroyed whatever good had been achieved in many parts of the world.

Religion is IMO mostly a tool for mind control and as such can only encourage a sheep mentality and this is a very dangerous and slippery slope.

We must encourage rational thinking and a true appreciation of common sense, reason , logic and science or the Dark Ages will never be behind us.

I think we should all remember that until very recently the Western World also condoned a lot of serious human rights abuses such as slavery, marital rape, was against the Universal Suffrage etc... We may be slightly "ahead" on certain matters ( and not on many others) now but it does seem incredibly disingenuous and intellectually dishonest to pretend we have the moral high-ground. Quite frankly we can all do better. When I see some of the moralising, holier than thou judgemental attitude from those I would call fundamentalist Christians I often ponder how advanced we truly are.

It seems to me some attitudes espoused by many posters would fit fall quite neatly in line with some of the Taleban...
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