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Old 01-13-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,577,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I'm sorry . . . this question reveals that you have accepted Islam without adequate investigation of it . . .
Bull$hit! is what I say to this.

Again, VOLUME 4 OF WHAT? Volume 4 of some set of Hadiths? Which set? by Whom? There is no "volume 4" of the QURAN. So, again VOLUME 4 of WHAT by WHOM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
based upon your love for the man you are with. There can be no meaningful discourse when the acceptance is based on love of another who may or may not know or understand what you have been asked to accept.
Ha, this is actually hilarious. The thought of my husband being the one to "bring me to Islam" is like the laugh of the century. His being Muslim by birth is about his only contribution.

There may be women in the position that you describe but I am not one of them. So try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is not to fault you . . . there are so many hadiths . . . but clearly your defense is based on your love for this man and not knowledge of Islam. Be well.
Again, bull$hit. Go ahead, give me the hadiths that state exactly what you implied. Then I can read them myself and see if you are taking them out of context.

And don't ever think you know something about me EVER again because you don't know anything about me. I am not some idiot that just sold my kids down the river with some weird religion because I was blinded by love for some man that came along. I know how to read, and I have read, and I do read.

You obviously do too, and I ask you to post your sources, repeatedly now and you refuse to do so. Why?
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:27 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,577,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Mommytotwo...thank you for your explanations. I think I understand...a Muslim is a Muslim and no other human can say otherwise...it's for Allah to decide.

As ZugZub pointed out there are several Christian denominations that will excommunicate members from the congregation if they are sinning unrepentantly.
In 1 Corinthians 5 it says...
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

I may be crazy, but I personally appreciate that my Christian congregation is protected in this way. Everyone is welcome, but to be baptised and in good standing you must maintain a standard of Christian principles. If for some reason a person is excommunicated, they can always get reinstated by changing their conduct. The bible gives us counsel on how to change our lives and "put on a new personality". It seems that the Islam would have benefited from requiring members to change their conduct to be considered a Muslim...ie: terrorists would not be associated with Islam.

"...most of the muslim fundamentalist terrorists are driven by political strife, not their religion..."
Isn't that a problem? Political movements masquerading as religions?

Thanks for helping me clarify some points
I understand that you say that someone can be excommunicated from the church, but they are still Christians, are they not? You cannot say they are not Christians, they just may not be members of your church anymore, they can just go to another church.

I see what you mean, though, kind of a formal "Straighten up your act or Get out" kind of policy.

My whole family is one variety of Christian or another and none have ever been thrown out of their churches. Even the Catholic cousin who got pregnant before marriage, lived with the boyfriend, then got pregnant by him again, hell she is a teacher at a CATHOLIC school. Well, they did finally put their foot down w/the second pregnancy and tell her to get married before she came back to work after the second kid. they saw no reason for her and her then fiancee to continue to live together and have kids w/out the marriage. But her church never would have thrown her out. Are these churches that do this mainly strict ones?
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,577,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Jihad is war against the infidels and . . . "War is deceit."(Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267, 268, 269).
You don't want to answer, fine. If you want to quote Bukhari, just say you are quoting from Bukhari. Not sure why you couldn't just say so. However, if you are going to quote, fully quote.
Here are 267, 268, and 269.

267:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.

268:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".

269:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

Where are the infidels in this quote?

War is deceit. This is not front page news. Yes, war is deceit. In general. In all wars there is deceit.

Frankly I find your use of quoting deceitful. You start with one thing, add in a quoted portion, and the reader, who doesn't know any better will just read it in one smooth line.

And mystic, just a bit of time on the net looking at Book 52 reveals a plethura of anti-Islam websites discussing Jihad, of course with the anti-Islam spin. Quite an amazing number, actually. So I am not surprised to find you here, basically posting the same ideas.

Frankly, I have only ever been a moderately religious person. I wasn't a fundamentalist Christian nor am I a fundamentalist Muslim. I look at the extremist Christians as quacks, sorry to offend anyone, and I also look at the extremist muslims as quacks (except for the dangerous ones of either group, then I see them as dangerous quacks).

There is a middle ground in religion. Not every Muslim lives their lives by the Quran and Hadith word for word, analyzing every single hadith and verse in order to proceed in every aspect of their daily life. There is an element of doing what you are able to do when you are able to do it, and if you want to call it picking and choosing so be it. There are plenty of "rules" that moderate Christians are disregarding right and left.

I understand that one has to over-analyze all of this in order to see where the extremists are coming from, in order to understand how they think they are justified, understand their actions and or predict future actions/behaviors, but to ascribe the behavior of extremists or fundamentalists to all Muslims is just wrong.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:26 PM
 
40,090 posts, read 26,755,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Bull$hit! is what I say to this.
Again, bull$hit. Go ahead, give me the hadiths that state exactly what you implied. Then I can read them myself and see if you are taking them out of context.
Dr A. M. A. Fahmy
International Islamic Forum:

"Jihad is an obligation from Allah on every Muslim and cannot be ignored nor evaded. Allah has ascribed great importance to jihad and has made the reward of the martyrs and the fighters in His way a splendid one. Only those who have acted similarly and who have modelled themselves upon the martyrs in their performance of jihad can join them in this reward. Furthermore, Allah has specifically honoured the Mujahideen with certain exceptional qualities, both spiritual and practical, to benefit them in this world and the next. Their pure blood is a symbol of victory in this world and the mark of success and felicity in the world to come."

There are 199 references to jihad in the most standard collection of hadith, Sahih al-Bukhari, all assume that jihad means warfare.

Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)
Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 52


Muslim traditionalists see that the world is divided into two houses: the House of Islamic Peace (Dar al-Salam). . . in which Muslim governments rule and Muslim law prevails . . . and the House of War (Dar al-Harb), the rest of the world, still inhabited. The presumption is that by natural law these domains will compete and fighting is inevitable . . . therefore the duty of jihad will continue (interrupted only by truces) . . . until all the world either adopts the Muslim faith or submits to Muslim rule.

Some more hadith indicating why so-called "moderate Muslims secretly support the jihadis:

‘He who provides for a mujahid in the Way of Allah the Almighty, it is as if he himself has made jihad; and he who has supported the family of a mujahid with an act of goodness, it is as if he himself has made jihad.’ (Transmitted by Al Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud and Al-Tirmidhi)

‘He who meets Allah with no trace of jihad on him will meet Allah with a flaw in him.’ (Transmitted by Al-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah)

From the Q'uran

Surat-al-Baqarah (2), ayah 216
‘Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike something which is good for you and that you like something which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.’


Surat-at-Tawbah (9), ayah 29
‘Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the Religion of Truth (i.e. Islam), from among the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.’


(The People of the book are Jews and Christians)

The author of the "Majma' al-Anhar fi Sharh Multaqal-Abhar", in describing the rules of jihad according to the Hanafi School, said:

"Jihad linguistically means to exert one's utmost effort in word and action; in the Sharee’ah it is the fighting of the unbelievers, and involves all possible efforts that are necessary to dismantle the power of the enemies of Islam including beating them, plundering their wealth, destroying their places of worship and smashing their idols. This means that jihad is to strive to the utmost to ensure the strength of Islam by such means as fighting those who fight you and the dhimmies (if they violate any of the terms of the treaty) and the apostates (who are the worst of unbelievers, for they disbelieved after they have affirmed their belief).

It is fard (obligatory) on us to fight with the enemies. The Imam must send a military expedition to the Dar-al-Harb every year at least once or twice, and the people must support him in this. If some of the people fulfil the obligation, the remainder are released from the obligation. If this fard kifayah (communal obligation) cannot be fulfilled by that group, then the responsibility lies with the closest adjacent group, and then the closest after that etc., and if the fard kifayah cannot be fulfilled except by all the people, it then becomes a fard ‘ayn (individual obligation), like prayer on everyone of the people. This obligation is by virtue of what He, the Almighty, said:

‘Then fight the polytheists...!’

(Surat at-Tawbah (9), ayah 5)

and by what the Prophet (PBUH) said:

‘Jihad is in effect until the Day of Judgement’
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:32 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
We don't call people "infidels," you are either a believer or an unbeliever. An infidel is someone who has no religious beliefs what so ever.
i don't call them infidels either , nor early muslims nor mohammed or quran did that . do you know why ?
because infidels is english word

kafir is the arabic word which means unbeliever , i don't know if infidels is accurate translation for kafir

anyway i just told you what i understand as a meaning for this word , may be it insulting you somhow , i don't know , english not my native language

when i read this word or using it , i means non_muslims , not more than that
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:58 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Hmmm.... so you do judge members. I thought only Allah could judge???
God command muslims to judge those whom hurt society or other's rights
as killing , theft , rap .... , etc . then allah will punish them agian in judgment day if they didn't repent

anyway from your questions i feel that i misuderstanding you
what do you mean exactly by judge ? do you mean crimes law or something else ?
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:21 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,577,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Jihad is war against the infidels and . . . "War is deceit."(Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267, 268, 269).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post

There are 199 references to jihad in the most standard collection of hadith, Sahih al-Bukhari, all assume that jihad means warfare.
And warfare against infidels is mentioned in 199 of them?

Because you stated above that war against the infidels is jihad. So, anyone who didn't know better would think that jihad is ONLY war against infidels, and nothing else.

Actually, I think I don't want to get into this with you, without knowing where your education on the subject was obtained.

Seeing what can be learned on the internet, and not even by Islamic sources, is very biased and disturbing and unless you have researched the topic in an unbiased manner, then I would have to take whatever you say with a grain of salt.

And I do not trust anyone who makes assumptions about other people (like you did about me). I simply cannot trust the type of person that "thinks" they can make statements such as you did from the little information I provided. You were way out on a limb. What kind of person makes such assumptions? I know this type of person, the one that assumes things about other people and jumps to conclusions, and unfortunately this type of person usually cannot be reasoned with. A particular uncle of mine comes to mind. And my own brother. There are some people you just don't want to get into discussions with. I am getting the feeling you might be one of them.

You have already shown me w/the Quran translation that you are looking for the most negative translation you can find, and if someone provides another translation that is benign, you will disregard it as irrelevant. Therefore you are stuck on what you have in front of you, whatever it may be. If it was me, I'd look to several sources to find the common ground, you have found a very negative one that suits your needs, therefore no others matter. So you know what you are looking for before you find it.

Have a good night, take it all up with elwill if he likes.

I am not going to discuss it further with you but will, at my leisure, obtain Bukhari (WITH EXPLANATION of CONTEXT) and look at these hadith myself.

"Peace" to you.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:35 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Mommytotwo...thank you for your explanations. I think I understand...a Muslim is a Muslim and no other human can say otherwise...it's for Allah to decide.
that's right , if some muslims act against teaching of islam , so it will be the decision of God to refuse his islam in judgement day

for us as humans we denying thier acts to be islamic not refusing them to be muslims , because he still muslim , not athiest nor christian nor jew nor anything but muslim

Quote:
As ZugZub pointed out there are several Christian denominations that will excommunicate members from the congregation if they are sinning unrepentantly.
what kind of sins are you talking about then
terrorist crimes ?
who commiting kill crimes will be prisoned or be killed for thier crimes , they will have no chances to enters mosque or church


i agree either that Christian denominations excommunicate members from the congregation .
big difference between members , and followers
i heared that they did that with priests who molesting childrens sexualy , but did they prohibit followers ?
is churches have list of names for followers who commited crimes ?


Quote:
In 1 Corinthians 5 it says...
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

again , the verses talking about priests and members of the churuch (because they talking in the name of church ) not talking about followers of christianity
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Old 01-14-2009, 12:11 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Have a good night, take it all up with elwill if he likes.

I am not going to discuss it further with you but will, at my leisure, obtain Bukhari (WITH EXPLANATION of CONTEXT) and look at these hadith myself.

"Peace" to you.
they know our answers , they always ignoring it
i have no problem to repeat myself again and again according to jihad issue but i will do that with whom i think sincere to know

america and israil dosn't like the jihad becuase they find it in iraq and phalstine , you know ? it will be easier to steal their lands if there is no jihad
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
244 posts, read 254,098 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beeveenh View Post
Ok...so what do Muslims consider the terrorist Muslims to be?

Do you see where I'm confused? I don't understand how a group can consider themselves peaceful, yet accept those into the fold who are so heinously evil and ruining the Muslim reputation around the world.
Hitler considered himself a devout Catholic. In fact, the Third Reich is considered to be an extension of the first two Reichs, the Weimar Republic being the Second Reich, and the Holy Roman Empire being the First Reich. This does not mean that people practicing the best traditions of Catholocism can be blamed for Hitler's atrocities. It just means that people can become so befuddled by their faith that their own crazed actions somehow seem righteous in their own minds.

It becomes incumbent on sensible people to adhere to the best values of whatever their faith may be and to aid in the exposure and elimination of behaviors that are counterproductive to those shared 'best values'. I'm not sure true Muslims are 'accepting' their misguided namesakes. If anything, they may not be doing enough to help redirect their behaviors or enlightening authorities of counterproductive activity. But who can really talk to a madman bent on the belief that they are the only one thinking correctly, or even given a mandate by god in their flawed understanding of it/him?

I'll say it again and again; it all starts with the children. Parents need to keep their focus on their children, teaching them the best values of faith, morality, and ethics. I don't think death and destruction feels right for a child. Being taught at an early age the importance of communication and self-esteem, a child will have the courage to turn away from what he or she feels is inherently wrong about a behavior that may be later forced upon them. There will always be a small percentage of people who are lost, as their children will be lost. That should not keep hope from diminishing. Each of us can play a positive role that can make a difference.
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