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Old 01-14-2009, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,143 posts, read 5,105,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Those suras in the Quran do not advocate killing apostates. I just read them. I wonder where you got this list from? Becaue if you actually read them you would see that no where does it say that anyone should kill an apostate.

I can quote them but it will be a very long post.

In most of these suras it says that the person who turns their back will be punished in the hereafter. (heaven/hell), not that someone should kill them right now.

I did not read the hadiths but I will later. The problem for me with hadiths is that I don't have a set of hadith books with explanation right now to refer to. But I will try to find it on the internet.
'Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him' Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 9:57
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Old 01-14-2009, 07:53 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
'Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him' Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 9:57
Where I read the hadith online, it did not specify Islamic religion. Where are you finding this translation?

And as I said, I don't have a set of Hadith w/explanation on hand.

I did a "quick" search on the net and found several points on the above hadith and actually others that you mentioned.

context--apparently this was at a time when Islam was relatively new and some of the Jews and Christians would say that they were muslim and then go back to their religions, on purpose to confuse those that accepted Islam and show them that it was not a worthy religion.

I also read that this was not an order for all time, but an order for the time being back then.

Another site states that this is a weak hadith.

Another site cites many cases where Mohammad did not kill apostates. (so he was not even following the above order)

In any case, this is not in the Quran in any of the surahs you mentioned.

Apparently while many Muslim scholars say that apostates should be executed, there are other scholars that say they should not. This seems to be debatable in the Muslim community and throughout time as a matter of fact.

I stress that this was not a thorough research.
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:25 PM
 
40,037 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Are you ready to say I am lying? I have given out more personal information than anyone on this thread. If you think I am lying, say it. There is no benefit for me to tell stories here.
I respect your intelligence, your personal wisdom, and your frankness in conveying these details. I have no more concerns about you or your family. It is an unfortunate time we live in when fanatics have achieved such global reach and power throughout the world that such suspicions even exist. My apologies to you, your family and your husband if I have offended in any way in my desire to alert you of potential pitfalls. Be well,
Mystic
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Yes, I try not to make assumptions. Rather, I ask questions. Regarding you. I had ideas. Maybe Iranian, a sufi, "mystic", hm, not sure, probably has a phd, "phd", maybe still working on it, maybe not, maybe studied Islam, maybe just cutting and pasting off the internet (which is why I asked you what volume, wasn't sure if you even knew). Probably a man, but not sure. Etc. Etc. Etc. I can make guesses, but they are pure speculation which is why it is just better to ask for the information you are seeking, ask for the information, discuss. That is what we are here for, isn't it. At some level yes we all make assumptions but I wouldn't have made the assumption you did and certainly if that was my suspicion I would have sought out more info to support it before voicing it.

Congratulations on this achievement, but I don't hear anything specific regarding women converts to islam. Did you conduct a research on them? Read a book? An article? A paper? Attend a conference? A social psychology paper on this? Anything regarding women converts that would lead you to the idea that women convert to islam because of love and not because they have a brain in their head and read and decide? I just want to know where you are coming from, and I do believe these women exist but I would need some sort of factual information before I speculated on a percentage that convert solely for love and those that convert out of knowledge and information.

Seriously, I could go on about how non religious my husband is, but his religious "shortcomings" are not the issue here.

There is no conspiracy. Don't get overly suspicious. My DH did not have to insist about the kids because it was not an issue. I wasn't arguing with him about it, upset that the kids couldn't be my religion. From an Islamic perspective, it is a father's responsibility to raise his children as muslims. Bottom line.

Look, a few years ago we visited my DH's cousin & wife. Wine, beer, hell they were even ordering the potato skins w/bacon bits. I had to tell them there was bacon on it in case they didn't know because my father in law was eating with us (not even sure if I was muslim at the time). We got to their house, Santa/Christmas stuff everywhere. The wife didn't look Egyptian, she looked asian, and she wasn't covering her head. I whispered to my husband, "are they muslim?" He said "of course" as if it was entirely obvious. Later the husband describes himself as a liberal democratic hippie or something like that (I have never told him he should be saying liberal democratic YUPPIE but this is beside the point). These people don't pray or fast. Charity, maybe they give to charity but that is just a nice thing to do anyway.

Point is, they have a kid now. And you can bet your last dollar that if I ask them if their daughter is "muslim" they are going to say yes. What else would she be?

There is no conspiracy here. I would venture to say that even non practicing muslims are probably going to call their children muslim. What do you think they are going to do, raise them to be jews or christians or something else? Naturally, they are going to raise them whatever they are.

It seems you simply cannot comprehend what I am saying. Can you not wrap your mind around the fact that a person can be totally not practicing their religion but what their children to be that religion? Clearly you are an educated person. Thus, I cannot understand why you are still "suspicious".

Are you ready to say I am lying? I have given out more personal information than anyone on this thread. If you think I am lying, say it. There is no benefit for me to tell stories here.
I do have children, teenagers in fact and if there is one thing I have learned and they have taught me is this....if you don't practice what you preach, it means nothing to them. They can see right through you so if you are not sincere in your religion (practicing) and your husband is not, there is no hope that they will be either. If you use profanity, they will too. If you smoke, they will too. If you compromise, they will too. They are mere images of ourselves.

Sounds like your husband's family are "secular" Muslims, not religious Muslims. If that is the case, your statements won't carry much weight in these discussions because there is no passion with which to debate the core of Islam. I applaud your efforts though.
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Old 01-14-2009, 08:42 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I respect your intelligence, your personal wisdom, and your frankness in conveying these details. I have no more concerns about you or your family. It is an unfortunate time we live in when fanatics have achieved such global reach and power throughout the world that such suspicions even exist. My apologies to you, your family and your husband if I have offended in any way in my desire to alert you of potential pitfalls. Be well,
Mystic
Thank you so much, I do appreciate your intent. It's been, wow, almost 15 years now I've been with my DH. We both pretty much know where we stand.

I am glad we discussed this to this point. Have a great night.
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Old 01-14-2009, 09:04 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
I do have children, teenagers in fact and if there is one thing I have learned and they have taught me is this....if you don't practice what you preach, it means nothing to them. They can see right through you so if you are not sincere in your religion (practicing) and your husband is not, there is no hope that they will be either. If you use profanity, they will too. If you smoke, they will too. If you compromise, they will too. They are mere images of ourselves.

Sounds like your husband's family are "secular" Muslims, not religious Muslims. If that is the case, your statements won't carry much weight in these discussions because there is no passion with which to debate the core of Islam. I applaud your efforts though.
No, actually he comes from a very large family and most are very religious. The cousin that i mentioned has parents and sisters that are very devout. My DH's brother is very, very devout. My mother in law is very religious (Heck, she has read Quran for my husband every time he's had an exam his entire life and for him in his career, testing still hasn't finished). My father in law prays five times a day, fasts and has been to his pilgrimage. I just think there are a lot of muslims who appear to ignore major portions of their religions, assuming they will eventually do what they are supposed to be doing. My DH happens to be one of those. It's a sort of procrastination, that seems to be somewhat acceptable to them. It seems understood that everyone straightens up at some point down the line.

Regarding the example set for the children, you are certainly right. I do what I can with them, but you reap what you sow. He will find out one day where his lack of participation gets him in the long run with his children, and that will be the day his daughter comes home and says she wants to marry someone that is not muslim. I am waiting to hear him explain that one to her. I can't and won't do it all for him. And while I may say that my DH hardly practices now does not mean that there hasn't been variations in direction of his religious compass. He often laughs that I am the more religious of the two of us, and he is definitely correct on that one. If I am going to do something, I usually do it to the best of my ability, no matter what that might be.

I do not agree with your statement that we are secular muslims, however, just so you know. I might have mentioned that my DH hardly practices but I did not expand on my own level of participation or non participation.

My statements do and should carry weight in these discussions because I am a Muslim and so is my DH, and so are our children. This discussion is about Islam, not fundamentalist Islam. What ALL muslims have to say is pertinent and relevant, and the segment of the Muslim population that we represent exists, but frankly appears to be seldom heard from. People like to assume that all muslims are religious fanatics but Muslims do run the gamut from completely non religious (yes, I see these people at the mosque only on holidays that have absolutely no idea even how to perform prayers, and never fast), to extremely religious, and everywhere in between.

Not to mention, no matter my DH's level of practice, I can speak from the perspective of for example, his barely practicing to the numerous other Muslims I know that practice very constantly and intently.

For the fundamentalists and extremists, no I cannot speak for them as I don't know any.

But if you are looking to discuss Islam only with fundamentalists, then you should start a thread spefically with that intention.
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Old 01-14-2009, 11:35 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Where I read the hadith online, it did not specify Islamic religion. Where are you finding this translation?

And as I said, I don't have a set of Hadith w/explanation on hand.

I did a "quick" search on the net and found several points on the above hadith and actually others that you mentioned.

context--apparently this was at a time when Islam was relatively new and some of the Jews and Christians would say that they were muslim and then go back to their religions, on purpose to confuse those that accepted Islam and show them that it was not a worthy religion.

I also read that this was not an order for all time, but an order for the time being back then.

Another site states that this is a weak hadith.

Another site cites many cases where Mohammad did not kill apostates. (so he was not even following the above order)

In any case, this is not in the Quran in any of the surahs you mentioned.

Apparently while many Muslim scholars say that apostates should be executed, there are other scholars that say they should not. This seems to be debatable in the Muslim community and throughout time as a matter of fact.

I stress that this was not a thorough research.
just wanna to add that

this hadith is considered a weak hadith with just a single isnad (this means there is only one chain of transmission or narration) and thus according to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, it is not enough to validate the death penalty. (there's just one and only one from the companionions of the prophet who narrated this hadeeth)

beside , this hadith is also considered a general ('amm) hadith in that it is in need of specification (takhsis); for it would otherwise convey a meaning that is not within its purpose. The obvious reading of the hadith would, for example, make liable the death punishment on a Hindu or Christian who converts to Islam. This is obviously not the intention of the hadith.
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,874 posts, read 31,747,081 times
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Explain these away...Just three of many in Surah 4

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14

For the disbelievers and those who make a last-minute conversion, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:18

For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37

SAQ, Intolerance in Surah 4
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Old 01-15-2009, 02:43 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Explain these away...Just three of many in Surah 4

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14

For the disbelievers and those who make a last-minute conversion, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:18

For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37

SAQ, Intolerance in Surah 4

it's very obvious that verses are talking about hereafter

the first verse fit the muslims either who disobey allah and his massenger
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:07 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Explain these away...Just three of many in Surah 4

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14

For the disbelievers and those who make a last-minute conversion, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:18

For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37

SAQ, Intolerance in Surah 4
From the Quran I have on hand:

4:14But those who disobey Allah and his messenger and transgress his limits will be admitted to a fire, to abide therein: and they shall have a humiliating punishment.

4:18 Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them and he says, "now have I repented indeed"; nor of those who die rejecting faith: for them have we prepared a chastisement most grievous.

4:37Nor those who are *****rdly, enjoin *****rdliness on others, hide the bounties which Allah hath bestowed on them; for we have prepared for those who resist Faith a punishment that steeps them in contempt.

(note: the starred portions are a word that according to merriam webster mean acting in a "meanly covetous and stingy" way)

So these verses are referring to stingy, miserly people, those that sin w/out true repentance, and those that "transgress limits", and they refer to a punishment in the afterlife, not someone setting the person on fire here and now.

There are plenty of references in the Quran about the hereafter. I don't know how many, but you could go on and on.

Burn in hell. I have heard this expression my whole life. So Islam can't be the only religion that associates hell with fire and burning, etc.

I wouldn't call this "intolerance" though, maybe "who's going to hell" or "what's hell like?". Not intolerance.
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