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Old 01-15-2009, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,872 posts, read 31,747,081 times
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This is not intolerance??? This is worse than intolerance. It is promoting murder and violence, and this is not talking about any afterlife.

Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
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Old 01-15-2009, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,507,068 times
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O.K. the lazy proof of Man is that the progress in the World can occur for fostering tolerance and realism for cooperation in a state of modernism where there still resides the snake of hopelessly banal life.
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Old 01-15-2009, 03:35 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
This is not intolerance??? This is worse than intolerance. It is promoting murder and violence, and this is not talking about any afterlife.
what !! this isn't talking about anyafterlife ?
okey as you want
but muslims believe that these verses talking about afterlife , that's for sure

peace
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Old 01-15-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,872 posts, read 31,747,081 times
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Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

So you are saying that you will wait till the afterlife to kill the unbelievers? How does that work since they are already dead?
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:01 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,572,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
This is not intolerance??? This is worse than intolerance. It is promoting murder and violence, and this is not talking about any afterlife.
Of course it is talking about the afterlife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers. (See 2:65-66) 4:47

Where are you getting these translations!?!?! Seriously, this is ridiculous.


Never mind, I know where you are getting them, on the website you linked. You might want to find out what translation they are using and then see if this is an acceptable translation. There are a lot of different translations, many which are not accurate translations.

If you want to continue this, you really should get a better source.
2:65
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes. Despised and rejected" ***
:66 So we made it an example to their own time and to their posterity and a lesson to those who fear allah.

Explanation***
The punishment for breach of the Sabbath under the Mosaic law was death. "everyone that defileth it (the Sabbath) shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people": (Exod. xxxi. 14) there must have been a Jewish tradition about a whole fishing community in a seaside town, which persisted in breaking the Sabbath and were turned into apes

Ok, so this is actually something that according to the Quran happened during the time of the Jewish people, as Exodus is mentioned.

Here is Exodus Chapter 31 Vs. 12 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: 13 'Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying: Verily ye shall keep My sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that ye may know that I am the LORD who sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you; every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD; whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

It mentions nothing of apes, but there are some things in the Quran that are mentioned as having happened prior to the time of the Quran that are not in the bible.

Speaking of death and intolerance, if the above bible verses are correct, people working on the sabbath should be put to DEATH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

So you are saying that you will wait till the afterlife to kill the unbelievers? How does that work since they are already dead?

unbelievers is not the correct word, first of all, hypocrites is used. you can read below. I am not going to type the lenghly explanation, but it basically describes hypocrites as deserters, traitors, enemies (in war situations). and this sieze them and slay them does not apply in cases where the deserter took asylum w/ a tribe w/whom there was a peace treaty (thus they would not be joining the enemy) or a "man from his own heart desires never to take up arms against Islam, though he does not wish to join the forces of Islam" this person must make assurances of his sincerity.

this is not referring to unbelievers like people of other religions, and of course this particular verse is not referring to the afterlife. But it appears that it is in cases of war, and I am not sure if this has a relevance to modern life or not, maybe elwill can give an opinion on my understanding of this.

anyway, here is the translation:
4:88 (lets back up a bit)
Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ***Allah hath cast them off for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom allah hath thrown out of the way? for those whome allah hath thrown out of the way, never shalt thou find the way
4:89
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks
4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty , or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:12 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

So you are saying that you will wait till the afterlife to kill the unbelievers? How does that work since they are already dead?
all i have to do for responding is to put your verse in its context fo more understanding , if you have any objections about the entire context , inform me . it dosn't need any clarification i think

4-89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

4-90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

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Old 01-15-2009, 11:37 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
unbelievers is not the correct word, first of all, hypocrites is used. you can read below. I am not going to type the lenghly explanation, but it basically describes hypocrites as deserters, traitors, enemies (in war situations). and this sieze them and slay them does not apply in cases where the deserter took asylum w/ a tribe w/whom there was a peace treaty (thus they would not be joining the enemy) or a "man from his own heart desires never to take up arms against Islam, though he does not wish to join the forces of Islam" this person must make assurances of his sincerity.

this is not referring to unbelievers like people of other religions, and of course this particular verse is not referring to the afterlife. But it appears that it is in cases of war, and I am not sure if this has a relevance to modern life or not, maybe elwill can give an opinion on my understanding of this.

anyway, here is the translation:
4:88 (lets back up a bit)
Why should ye be divided into two parties about the hypocrites? ***Allah hath cast them off for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom allah hath thrown out of the way? for those whome allah hath thrown out of the way, never shalt thou find the way
4:89
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks
4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty , or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)
you are right
these verse in it's context talking about hyprotics as you said . it's very important to know the situation where the verses revealed

Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah was revealed about some people in Makkah who said they embraced Islam, yet they gave their support to the idolators. One time, theses people went out of Makkah to fulfill some needs and said to each other, "If we meet the Companions of Muhammad, there will be no harm for us from their side.'' When the believers got news that these people went out of Makkah, some of them said, "Let us march to these cowards and kill them, because they support your enemy against you.'' However, another group from the believers said, "Glory be to Allah! Do you kill a people who say as you have said, just because they did not perform Hijrah or leave their land Is it allowed to shed their blood and confiscate their money in this case'' So they divided to two groups, while the Messenger was with them, and did not prohibit either group from reiterating their argument. Thereafter, Allah revealed
Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites

anyway , its obvious from the verse of quran that God prohibit muslims to kill them by saying except those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
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Old 01-16-2009, 04:48 PM
 
Location: france
15 posts, read 16,649 times
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It makes no sense to me - that anyone would worry about 'interpreting' interpretations of interpretations of interpretations...
in order to come to any conclusions about how to think, or to live.
If in doubt - do as JC suggested - think of god as a loving father - who cares for EVERYONE .
AND all creation. Not just a bunch of people here or there - who do all kinds of rituals or actions or wear certain clothes - but EVERYONE, and everything. Thats you, too.
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Old 01-16-2009, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,256,313 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
you are right
these verse in it's context talking about hyprotics as you said . it's very important to know the situation where the verses revealed

Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah was revealed about some people in Makkah who said they embraced Islam, yet they gave their support to the idolators. One time, theses people went out of Makkah to fulfill some needs and said to each other, "If we meet the Companions of Muhammad, there will be no harm for us from their side.'' When the believers got news that these people went out of Makkah, some of them said, "Let us march to these cowards and kill them, because they support your enemy against you.'' However, another group from the believers said, "Glory be to Allah! Do you kill a people who say as you have said, just because they did not perform Hijrah or leave their land Is it allowed to shed their blood and confiscate their money in this case'' So they divided to two groups, while the Messenger was with them, and did not prohibit either group from reiterating their argument. Thereafter, Allah revealed
Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites

anyway , its obvious from the verse of quran that God prohibit muslims to kill them by saying except those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Kill them, don't kill them. Sounds very conflicting.
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Old 01-17-2009, 01:42 PM
 
4 posts, read 4,795 times
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this is just sad

the way humans are acting today is just sad

it's like we're simming in the sea among the wreckage of a ship

may allah send peace upon his people, may allah lead everyone to the right path
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