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Old 01-24-2009, 09:37 PM
 
40,039 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
I may never find out if Muslims are a generally disingenuous people. I refuse to believe this is possible of any group. My issue isn't with people so much as it is Islam. If the Islamic faith extols behaviors that are counter to the success of the human culture that will one day rule the earth, or we will cease to exist, then it will become a goal of mine to use it as the prime example of moving beyond all the fruitless religions that have always served to divide people instead of bring them together.
There are beautiful principles in Islam (as in Christianity) . . . what differentiates Islam is the retention of the barbarism and desire for worldly conquest to place the entire world under Islamic law . . . that Christianity has been forced to outgrow. They define ALL who are not Muslim as unbelievers who must either be converted or killed . . . except for the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) who must be placed in Dhimmitude and pay for their right to exist under Islamic rule. NONE of this is negotiable until ALL the world is under Islamic rule or the Day of judment arrives.

During this period of Jihad (till Judgment Day) . . . there must be attacks every year somewhere against those identified as unbelievers at war with Islam or occupying Islamic lands (like Israel). All unbelievers who are part of the identified society are deemed enemies of Islam and NOT considered innocent. They are available targets of Jihad (to earn the yearly "points" with Allah). All Muslims earn these "points" and get credit with Allah for jihad as long as some of them engage in it and are supported by the others. Since they define the unbelievers in Jihad as not innocent and enemies . . . they are required to deceive ALL of them (not just given permission to do so) to aid the cause of Jihad.

Under such an ethic . . . how can any Muslim be totally trusted while we are under global Jihad?
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Old 01-25-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Kwazulu Natal, South Africa
91 posts, read 107,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
I would love to hear what your friends have to say about their religion. Do they cheer when Americans die from terrorism? I also give you respect for taking the time to learn about something you seem to be somewhat hostile toward. I am on an earlier path than you, but equally as willing to learn. I too have had Muslim friends, but they were not as devout as what I see here and in some periodicals. America, I think, has a way of doing that to people.



I have not experienced what you describe here and I would certainly be very disappointed in anyone who cheers the death of innocent people, wherever they are. I refuse to lose hope for tolerance and cooperation. I do not disbelieve you, but I have no such experiences with any Muslim I have known. Marking them all as bad is simply ignorant. You will be hard pressed to find a perfect religious dogma in any event.



This debate is for learning about what Islam is. The Muslims I have known were very much the same as any other of my friends, except when it came to their religious rites. Do you think that your friends smile at your face and hope you die? That just doesn't strike me as possible. What happens in countries that are mainly Muslim, I could not venture a guess. It would be hypocritical, wouldn't it? Is that trait strictly a Muslim one?

I am far from a potential follower. My life's work is based on encouraging the evolution of all humanity away from every religious dogma; to embrace the best virtues of all religions (faith, in each other, here and now), morality (transcendent values of right and wrong), ethics (based on the rule of human law, not the laws of a man-made god figure), and begin to take responsibility for knowing how to live and interact with one another, here in this world where it really counts. I have always made this known to anyone I talk to, including devout Muslims who were willing to listen and question me as much as I did them. God/god and Santa Claus are great stories for people who are too afraid to believe in themselves and others around them. But I would not ask for people to lose their faith before they were ready because despair and anarchy are too easy to fall into, and most people are too lazy or ignorant to make an honest effort to know themselves, treat their own families with the respect they deserve, and to truly wake up. I am not holding my breath for this to happen in my lifetime, however. I do believe that this is the only path for the success of our species and I feel good about dedicating my life toward that goal. Progress has to start somewhere and oftentimes the work is tough and dirty.



I would not appreciate visitors to my country bringing whatever is acceptable in their country here either. Could you imagine a child spitting their gum on the sidewalk here and getting beaten for it by a tourist? People need to respect other cultures, even if they don't approve of them, especially as a guest in their country. I don't go to a steak house to eat fish. I wouldn't want the nation of Islam to rule me in any way. But I do think that if I can understand them then maybe I can find a way to live in peace with them.



Detroit, Michigan, USA; as well as many other enclaves around the country. And I can't imagine that you don't think that there are Muslims in countries all over the world. They may not be part of their government, pushing Islamic agendas, but there are Muslims everywhere not plotting to overthrow the world. You have to be more informed than to believe your comment.



Can I ask if this is legal wherever this is happening? It certainly doesn't seem like it is either working out for them, or acceptable to anyone involved in that situation.



I may never find out if Muslims are a generally disingenuous people. I refuse to believe this is possible of any group. My issue isn't with people so much as it is Islam. If the Islamic faith extols behaviors that are counter to the success of the human culture that will one day rule the earth, or we will cease to exist, then it will become a goal of mine to use it as the prime example of moving beyond all the fruitless religions that have always served to divide people instead of bring them together. But I say to you and to anyone reading that regardless of what people need to believe in to be happy is fine, it is the fear, mistrust, and intolerance that I am striving to get beyond. Our minds are too powerful to continue to waste on perpetual division and hatred.
Very well said, I applaud your stance and you have my respect. Anyone who is willing to educate himself for the betterment of humanity deserves to be heard and hope others would read your post.

I have done reseach on most known religions and the one I find closest to what I would follow if I were to choose is Budhisim. I agree that people are not the problem but the religious ideals created to stifle harmony in humanity are the enemy.

I too would love to see people make real choices. Choices as we know, mostly are instilled in children through an obligation to a religious belief that it is the responsibilty of the parent to teach the child its own religious beliefs therefore grounding the child from an early age to ignore other possibilties. Most of these teachings are linked to fear and guilt.

When people tell me about their religious belief and try to convince me thereof I tell them to give another religion a chance with their kids because if they are offering truth then they will have no fear of their kids being influenced.

My point is respect of religious beliefs is followed by understanding then followed by tolerance and this I have a problem with because many unacceptable acts are performed under the banner of religion and if you respect them then you run the risk of condoning their actions even if it is murdering a daughter out of family honour or to arrange mass suicides or the promise of a miracle. People need to understand that the foundation of religion is belief and the common denominator is the mind not God.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
244 posts, read 253,869 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There are beautiful principles in Islam (as in Christianity) . . . what differentiates Islam is the retention of the barbarism and desire for worldly conquest to place the entire world under Islamic law . . . that Christianity has been forced to outgrow. They define ALL who are not Muslim as unbelievers who must either be converted or killed . . . except for the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) who must be placed in Dhimmitude and pay for their right to exist under Islamic rule. NONE of this is negotiable until ALL the world is under Islamic rule or the Day of judment arrives. ?
I was hoping that someone would jump in here and defend Islam. Are there no takers, or are we going to have to accept this as factual? Is it possible for a Muslim to protect the life of an unbeliever if a radical element of Islam plans to kill them? Are there radical elements of Islam, or are there only silent consenters? In other words, if a place is going to be bombed and another Muslim has information that it is going to happen, are they compelled by the priciples of Islam to protect life? Someone please say that this is so. This is a simple question. It also speaks to the comment above. Are the only people worth saving anywhere Muslim? What does this say about Islam if this is true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
During this period of Jihad (till Judgment Day) . . . there must be attacks every year somewhere against those identified as unbelievers at war with Islam or occupying Islamic lands (like Israel). All unbelievers who are part of the identified society are deemed enemies of Islam and NOT considered innocent. They are available targets of Jihad (to earn the yearly "points" with Allah). All Muslims earn these "points" and get credit with Allah for jihad as long as some of them engage in it and are supported by the others. Since they define the unbelievers in Jihad as not innocent and enemies . . . they are required to deceive ALL of them (not just given permission to do so) to aid the cause of Jihad.?
There is a very large enclave of Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan. If a family lives for generations in one place, does not that place become their homeland? And by extension, would Muslims begin to feel that they must convert the outlying areas for growing populations? I lived in Metropolitan Detroit for a few years and never heard of any major conflict. I know that there was an objection to the Call to Prayer, and debate over the difference between Church bells and the Call. But can anyone say that Muslims living within the US have a secret agenda? It seems so unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Under such an ethic . . . how can any Muslim be totally trusted while we are under global Jihad?
Is this where we are headed if the above questions go unanswered? Surely someone would like to debate this because it begins to seem as if there is no hope to find an equilibrium with the Islamic community.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:39 AM
 
2 posts, read 2,021 times
Reputation: 11
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Quran is the main source of Islamic knowledge. If someone wants to know about Islam, it is better to start with Quran. Here is a wonderful site with collection of verses on different topics:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]www.quranictopics.com[/SIZE][/FONT]
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:49 PM
 
40,039 posts, read 26,715,004 times
Reputation: 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There are beautiful principles in Islam (as in Christianity) . . . what differentiates Islam is the retention of the barbarism and desire for worldly conquest to place the entire world under Islamic law . . . that Christianity has been forced to outgrow. They define ALL who are not Muslim as unbelievers who must either be converted or killed . . . except for the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) who must be placed in Dhimmitude and pay for their right to exist under Islamic rule. NONE of this is negotiable until ALL the world is under Islamic rule or the Day of judment arrives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
I was hoping that someone would jump in here and defend Islam. Are there no takers, or are we going to have to accept this as factual? Is it possible for a Muslim to protect the life of an unbeliever if a radical element of Islam plans to kill them? Are there radical elements of Islam, or are there only silent consenters? In other words, if a place is going to be bombed and another Muslim has information that it is going to happen, are they compelled by the priciples of Islam to protect life? Someone please say that this is so. This is a simple question. It also speaks to the comment above. Are the only people worth saving anywhere Muslim? What does this say about Islam if this is true?
During this period of Jihad (till Judgment Day) . . . there must be attacks every year somewhere against those identified as unbelievers at war with Islam or occupying Islamic lands (like Israel). All unbelievers who are part of the identified society are deemed enemies of Islam and NOT considered innocent. They are available targets of Jihad (to earn the yearly "points" with Allah). All Muslims earn these "points" and get credit with Allah for jihad as long as some of them engage in it and are supported by the others. Since they define the unbelievers in Jihad as not innocent and enemies . . . they are required to deceive ALL of them (not just given permission to do so) to aid the cause of Jihad.
Quote:
There is a very large enclave of Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan. If a family lives for generations in one place, does not that place become their homeland? And by extension, would Muslims begin to feel that they must convert the outlying areas for growing populations? I lived in Metropolitan Detroit for a few years and never heard of any major conflict. I know that there was an objection to the Call to Prayer, and debate over the difference between Church bells and the Call. But can anyone say that Muslims living within the US have a secret agenda? It seems so unlikely.
Under such an ethic . . . how can any Muslim be totally trusted while we are under global Jihad?
Quote:
Is this where we are headed if the above questions go unanswered? Surely someone would like to debate this because it begins to seem as if there is no hope to find an equilibrium with the Islamic community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurangzeby View Post
Quran is the main source of Islamic knowledge. If someone wants to know about Islam, it is better to start with Quran. Here is a wonderful site with collection of verses on different topics:]www.quranictopics.com
There's your answer manquaman . . . no answer just continued propaganda and BS.
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:47 AM
 
3 posts, read 2,367 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
I was hoping that someone would jump in here and defend Islam. Are there no takers, or are we going to have to accept this as factual? Is it possible for a Muslim to protect the life of an unbeliever if a radical element of Islam plans to kill them? Are there radical elements of Islam, or are there only silent consenters? In other words, if a place is going to be bombed and another Muslim has information that it is going to happen, are they compelled by the priciples of Islam to protect life? Someone please say that this is so. This is a simple question. It also speaks to the comment above. Are the only people worth saving anywhere Muslim? What does this say about Islam if this is true?



There is a very large enclave of Muslims in Dearborn, Michigan. If a family lives for generations in one place, does not that place become their homeland? And by extension, would Muslims begin to feel that they must convert the outlying areas for growing populations? I lived in Metropolitan Detroit for a few years and never heard of any major conflict. I know that there was an objection to the Call to Prayer, and debate over the difference between Church bells and the Call. But can anyone say that Muslims living within the US have a secret agenda? It seems so unlikely.



Is this where we are headed if the above questions go unanswered? Surely someone would like to debate this because it begins to seem as if there is no hope to find an equilibrium with the Islamic community.

I was searching for some stuff when i came across this forum...And what i read here compelled me to say something and not leave all the questions unanswered.. though you will have to excuse me i am not a scholar myself..but i have read the Quran with its meanings many times provide with a tafseer(description).. and here is my understanding of Islam..First of all the word Islam is itself an arabic word meaning peace...Islam does consider every one who is a non-muslim as a non-believer and there are many ayat that say how they will be punished in the Hereafter...but that is not all that the Quran says.....It also says that Every muslim who has been entrusted with Islam has a moral obligation to help the non-believers except the true religion...now you might then say that in Islam we must force others to convert but that is also wrong...We are obliged to do da'wa which is "inviting" people to Islam and not forcing...It is said clearly in the Quran that we must educate people about Islam but NOT force them to convert. The ultimate decision lies on the person whether he wants to convert or not and he/she will be rewarded accordingly...And you must look at it from a Muslim's perspective... when we invite people to Islam we do it believing that it will help the person save himself from Hell and not to harm him...
Now the question of whether a muslim will save a non-muslim... I dont know why everyone thinks non-muslims are considered as monsters in Islam. Thats not at all true.. Helping a non-muslim earns as much reward as helping a muslim in Islam...Our Prophet Muhammed(S.A.W.) converted thousands of non-Muslims just by helping them and not preaching.. A true muslim must always save lives of people if he can regardless of their religion..
And there is no secret agenda to any Muslim society...All that a proper Muslim must do is to make sure that his brothers (which are the non-believers also) must know what Islam is so that they can make their own decision... I hope this helped..Pardon me if it didnt as i said i am not a scholar myself...
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Old 02-18-2010, 06:59 AM
 
3 posts, read 2,367 times
Reputation: 10
Also i would also like to make clear the meaning of Jihad.... the ongoing suicide bombings are NOT Jihad...It is desperation lead due to oppression as you can about the happenings in Palestine...However even then suicide is in no way exceptable in Islam and is forbidden..And about Jihad ...Jihad is a holy war that is fought ONLY When a particular muslim community is oppressed to a point where they cannot go anywhere...There are also many rules and regulations for Jihad...the most basic of which is that NO CIVILIANS MUST BE HURT .... what is going on in the world is not due to people following Islam but mainly due to people who have strayed from the path of Islam and misinterpret the meanings of the Quran.. So please dont judge Islam on the basis of the "jihadist" of the present world.. If you want to know what Islam stands for try reading the history about the rule of the caliphs after the time of The Prophet(SAW)....
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:58 AM
 
55 posts, read 115,265 times
Reputation: 25
Well i am amazed after looking @ this website ??? check this out & Qur'an is the holy book of islam Scientists On The Qur'an
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:43 PM
 
55 posts, read 115,265 times
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No One has to say any thing abt the above link ?? could that be true ??
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,967,933 times
Reputation: 5074
You are easily amazed. Yes, it is true that the Islamic parts of the world were far ahead of the 'Western world' for several centuries, partly because they did not reject the knowledge of the ancient Greeks & Romans simply because it was tainted by paganism. Unfortunately, most of that link consists of hyperbole extolling Muhammad and his great scientific knowledge.

As long as there are people around, of whatever faith, attempting to spread their "True Religion" by whatever means necessary, we're all in big trouble.
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