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Old 01-01-2009, 12:58 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
This is interesting, now you are wondering what illiteracy has to do with anything but you obviously thought it was relevant when you entered it as support for your opinion.



BTW - You missed a question.
Have you looked into the claims of illiteracy at all?
OK, here is how it went down, just so we make sure we are following each other:
  • a person seemed to suggest that the religion came from mohammed
  • i mentioned that he was illiterate
  • you mentioned that my religious beliefs were based on an illiterate man
  • you assured me there was credible evidence indicating that he was not illiterate
  • i said go ahead share it
  • you told me he was a business man (is this the credible evidence?) and asked if I looked into the claim
  • i said the fact that he was a business man didn't mean anything, my illiterate uncle was a truck driver, so what?
  • now you are saying I thought it was relevant when I offered it as support for my opinion (yes, and it was, when back to the original comment that the person seemed to think that the religion "came from him" it is entirely relevant.
For your question, yes I have, and I have read numerous articles on the subject, some saying he was illiterate and some saying he was literate or became literate sometime during the 40 years of revelation.

Frankly what I did wasn't a scientific research, as internet articles are often times biased.

I have not sat in a library, for hours, dissecting text after text on the issue.

It is generally accepted that he was either illiterate or was not well read and certainly not educated or a learned man, and even if I believed he could read, and was technically literate, I still wouldn't think him capable of writing such a thing as the Quran. You can read "See Jane Run" but you are not going to start writing Shakespeare.

There are certainly illiterate people who can read a few words here and there, write numbers and their names, but they are still illiterate.

I am not "wondering what illiteracy has to do with anything", just why you stated that he was a business man in relation to the claim that he was illiterate. I am wondering what his being a business man has to do with being illiterate?

I think you missed my point, and you still didn't supply the "credible evidence that indicates that mohammed was not illiterate".

The reason that his being illiterate is important is that he would not have been capable of "inventing" or "writing" the Quran.

If you're saying that you've got the equivalence of a 6th grade education and because you're questioning the notion of his being illiterate it has become unimportant, then you are missing my points, and hopefully the above will clarify.

Ps. sorry if i appear bi*chy but I really take offense when someone that has no idea what my religious beliefs are implies that my relationship with God is based on an illiterate man, then twists my words around attempting to use them to make their own argument and engage me in one. It's just very offensive and rude. I don't appreciate it.

I dislike the back and forth and at this point don't even remember what this thread is about....Oh yeah, "what is islam"

well, we are not necessarily off topic at this point I guess.
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:17 AM
 
783 posts, read 1,184,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
It is generally accepted that he was either illiterate or was not well read and certainly not educated or a learned man, and even if I believed he could read, and was technically literate, I still wouldn't think him capable of writing such a thing as the Quran. You can read "See Jane Run" but you are not going to start writing Shakespeare.
So which was it; “illiterate” or “not educated”? As you have pointed out, there is a difference.

Do you believe that Mohammad wrote the Quran?
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Old 01-01-2009, 01:40 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,196 times
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Ether or. No difference to me, because either way I believe that history has shown him to not be capable of "inventing/creating/writing" the Quran.

Did you forget to put up the credible evidence? At this point I'd like to know what you consider credible before continuing to discuss, because I really don't know what your point is here, other than you have credible evidence that he was literate. So, let's have it, then maybe you can say what you are getting at. I have said, whatever he is, I don't think he was capable of writing or creating the Quran. You have said nothing but he was not illiterate. So what is your point?

Do you believe Mohammed wrote the Quran?
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Old 01-01-2009, 02:12 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
So this being the case then why is it such a big deal, to many, that Mohammad was “illiterate”?


Like I stated before some use Mohammad’s “supposed illiteracy” as “slam dunk evidence” to establishes the validity of the Quran. Now that some lowly person with the equivalency of a sixth grade education questions this reasoning it suddenly isn’t important any more. Why?

it's very good to ask ,

many people in these days claims that mohammed (pbuh) read the scriptuers of jews and christians then copied some of it's knowlege in quran
so , mohammed (pbuh) being illetrate refutes these claims without start the discussion

some others claims that scientific facts mentioned in quran was allready known in greek culture
so , if mohammed (pbuh) being illeterate in his native languge will refute these claims that he read greek or hebrew languge

that's why the enemy of islam trying to proof he wasn't illiterate

after all , what is the miracle which his people recognized according to quran ?
it was the beuty of arabic words of quran , it was the poetry of quran what made them believe that it can't to be from human being , so being illetrate or not actually dosn't help to refute validity of quran

but anyway , i'm waiting your proofs
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Old 01-01-2009, 03:35 AM
 
787 posts, read 1,547,858 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
I think you're reading too much into his post. elnasr is only trying to say that Islam is not (or does not have to be) a violent religion.
I get very suspicious of this because of all the half dozen forums I frequent where Islam comes up, often a Muslim will post "a muslim shouldn't kill another muslim," and that I don't think I've ever read one post "a muslim shouldn't kill anyone."

Quote:
that is not what he/she was saying.
sure it wasn't. Freudian slip, I guess.

Quote:
no

For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth. Sura #5:32
If only I saw more responses like this, I'd feel more comfortable.
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:33 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,896,784 times
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Quote:
quote 'elnasr'
Islam simply means peace.

quote 'Spindle'
doesn't it mean submission to God?
I believe that in reality today, it is simply submission to what ever Islamic Clergy are in any one particular area at any one time, and whatever the prevailing religious climate and political agenda which dominates that particular area at the time.

Tradition says that Muhammad himself foresaw 72 heretical sects of Islam developing. Today there are some authorities which believe there are several hundred if not well over a thousand differing Islamic religious sects.


Quote:
quote 'elnasr'
Muslim killing his fellow Muslim as a result of suicide bomb, is that Islam? NO.

quote 'Spindle'
but a muslim killing a non-muslim as the result of a suicide bomb is fine?
The religion started out as a brotherhood of Islamic unity under a domination of an Arabic Empire, but such a united brotherhood of peace it was short lived like others. As everyone is aware, there are two well known major sects of Islam, the majority Sunni and the smaller Persian dominated Shiite or Shi'ah. Of every 100 Muslims, 83 are Sunni and about 15 Shia. Both of them have numerous subdivisions which I find fascinating. There are literally hundreds of sectarian groups, such as Druze, Black Muslims, Abangans of Indonesia who mix Islam with buddhism, Hinduism and other local tribal religions.

Apostate Judaism & Christianity had the influences from ancient Greek Philosophy and Logic in the 3rd & 4th thru the 9th centuries and Islam was no different. I believe the same influence came to be called (falsafa) and it had a far reaching impact on the rationalistic and outlook of pure Islam.

This Sufism, which is the western term for Islamic Mysticism, got it's movement started in the 8th or 9th century, and by the 12th century , they had their own version of Sufi Orders or Brotherhoods, something similiar to what Catholic & Othodox Churches developed and became wide spread in this new type of Islam. The Sufi Monastery even had more of an importance even over Mosques. Some of the practices were like an autohypnotism induced by concentration techniques or that frenzied dancing you may be familiar with or seen on some television documentaries of middle eastern regions. There were the chanting of formulas, belief in miracles, and the worship of saints.

Like the apostate Judaism & Christendom, the Sufi Movement also took on various local customs and beliefs of any region it moved into. Actually the Turkish Islamics have retained their Shamanistic practices, African Islamics their medicine men, Muslims of the Indian/Pakistani regions have their Hindu and pre-Hindu Saints and again Indonesia, has their "pre-Islamic" view of the world beneath an overlay of Islamic practices. It seems like as in Christendom, Islam found that the age old practice of , "Convert Or Die By The sword" did'nt always work as to obtaining converts, so adopting local customs and practices and giving them Islamic names or titles , like Christendom has done in their worship, seemed to appease or persuade the pagan/heathen unbeliever to the new faith.

Many of you might remember advertisements in the United States of the religion called Baha'i faith which is actually a break off of the Shiite sect. The Sunni's even have an unusual break off called Ahmadìyah, which was created around the 19th century like the Shiite Baha'i . This strange sect was started by a guy named Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a self proclaimed Prophet, professed to be a manifestation of Muhammad, the returned Jesus, and an incarnation of the Hindu Krishna. Wow how spooky is that

So all in all, Islam has their major divisions. The only real true unity and common ground they all seem to have is their hatred of Israel, United states, Britain and Western Culture in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnasr
islam indicate to marry four(4) wives (IF) you would be justly to all of them, feed them and their children, provide shelter to them and equality of love.
I find this interesting because while the Quran does permit polygamy, many Muslims only have one wife. Because of the numerous widows that were left after costly Holy wars, no doubt like the Crusades, the Quran made room for polygamy.

But I find more fascination with the practice of a form of marriage in Islam called (mut'ah). It's defined as
Quote:
" a special contract concluded between a man and a woman through offer and acceptance of marriage for a limited period and with a special dowry like the contract for a permanent marriage."
(source - Islamuna by Mustafa al-Rafi'i)
The Sunnis call it a marriage for pleasure, and the Shi'ah, a marriage to be terminated in a specific period. The same reference source I just quoted says,
Quote:
"The Children [of such marriages] are legitimate, and have the same rights as children of a permanent marriage."
Apparently this same marriage practice was practiced in Muhammad's day and he allowed it. Some Sunnis insist the practice was later prohibited, but the Imamis, the largest Shi'ite group, believe that it is still in effect. The fact is that many still practice it, especially where the man is gone from his wife and the family for long extended periods of time. So if a man is away working to support his family in say another country, and has strong sexual drive for the companionship of a woman, it can be legitimized through this tempoary marriage feature.
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:12 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,969 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
I get very suspicious of this because of all the half dozen forums I frequent where Islam comes up, often a Muslim will post "a muslim shouldn't kill another muslim," and that I don't think I've ever read one post "a muslim shouldn't kill anyone."

sure it wasn't. Freudian slip, I guess.

If only I saw more responses like this, I'd feel more comfortable.
muslims shouldn't kill anyone

i think that me and my fellow muslims in many forums actually trying to proof that
but anyway i made it very clear and i will do it again
muslims shouldn't kill anyone , as long as others not killing us

from quran
- God forbids you (muslims) not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just

This great verse clearly states the normal and original state for a good relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims. Allah (S.W.T.) did not prevent us (Muslims) from establishing good relationships with Non-Muslims. He clearly says that our relationships with Non-Muslims should be based on the best morals and justice with those who declared peace upon us and did not fight us.

the arabic word of dealing kindly with them was " ta bar rohom "
The Noble Quran uses the word, “Bir,” which is typically used to describe the highest relationship one could have with parents. The Quran also uses “Bir” to describe the type of relationship we should have with Non-Muslims. “Bir” includes all the good things that a relationship should have, and excludes all the bad aspects of a relationship. For that reason, Muslim scholars said that “Bir” is the foundation of the relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,196 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
I get very suspicious of this because of all the half dozen forums I frequent where Islam comes up, often a Muslim will post "a muslim shouldn't kill another muslim," and that I don't think I've ever read one post "a muslim shouldn't kill anyone."

If only I saw more responses like this, I'd feel more comfortable.
I have actually seen a number of responses like this.

I think muslim killing muslim is mentioned it is to show people that those doing the killing are not devout Muslims, because if they were why would they be killing people of the same faith, not just who they perceive as the "enemy". They are murderers, not just killing in self defense or for justfied purposes, because not only are they killing those that "supposedly" are thier enemy, but also people who are most definitely not their "enemy".

I could probably explain this better, but do you see what I am saying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
I believe that in reality today, it is simply submission to what ever Islamic Clergy are in any one particular area at any one time, and whatever the prevailing religious climate and political agenda which dominates that particular area at the time.
So in this day and age, you think Muslims are just submitting to the Sheik at the mosque down the street? I am really not getting your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
As everyone is aware, there are two well known major sects of Islam, the majority Sunni and the smaller Persian dominated Shiite or Shi'ah. Of every 100 Muslims, 83 are Sunni and about 15 Shia. Both of them have numerous subdivisions which I find fascinating. There are literally hundreds of sectarian groups, such as Druze, Black Muslims, Abangans of Indonesia who mix Islam with buddhism, Hinduism and other local tribal religions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
But I find more fascination with the practice of a form of marriage in Islam called (mut'ah). It's defined as
The Sunnis call it a marriage for pleasure, and the Shi'ah, a marriage to be terminated in a specific period. The same reference source I just quoted says, Apparently this same marriage practice was practiced in Muhammad's day and he allowed it. Some Sunnis insist the practice was later prohibited, but the Imamis, the largest Shi'ite group, believe that it is still in effect. The fact is that many still practice it, especially where the man is gone from his wife and the family for long extended periods of time. So if a man is away working to support his family in say another country, and has strong sexual drive for the companionship of a woman, it can be legitimized through this tempoary marriage feature.
I find it fascinating that above you mention that 83% of muslims are Sunni, then you go on to describe a practice, mutah, that is practiced maily by Shia, Sunnis considering it Unlawful at most or generally unacceptable in the least.

I love it when people, who clearly sound knowledgeable in some respects, bring up practicises that are not widespread nor widely accepted, and act like they are commonplace. Then the person that doesn't know anything about a subject walks along, reads it, and then assumes it's true because someone who sounded like he knew what he was talking about said so.

Regarding the "marriages in another country" I have only heard that they are not the same as a mutah, because there is no time that the marriage will end, it is basically the same as a regular marriage (don't really know why it is differentiated from a second marriage, then, but don't really feel like using my spare time to investigate either)

This is like generalizing that "Christianity allows polygamy" based on the small percentage of Christian men that have like 27 wives. (Meanwhile the rest of the Christians are viewing them as quacks) Just because a small percentage of Christian men believe that they are allowed to have all those wives, doesn't mean that mainstream Christian men view this as acceptable or even allowable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
So all in all, Islam has their major divisions. The only real true unity and common ground they all seem to have is their hatred of Israel, United states, Britain and Western Culture in general. I find this interesting because while the Quran does permit polygamy, many Muslims only have one wife. Because of the numerous widows that were left after costly Holy wars, no doubt like the Crusades, the Quran made room for polygamy.
Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Just curious because you are declaring that the common ground among muslims is their hatred against the above list. And I want to know where you get your knowledge of this hatred. From TV? HAve you been a victim of Muslim hatred? How many times? What percentage of Muslims you have met hate you because you are American? How many Muslims have you even met?

The reason that most Muslims don't have more than one wife is that it is generally viewed as not preferrable, and the fact that the man is ordered to treat the wives EXACTLY the same, entirely equally is considered by many impossible. Not to mention that contrary to what some people think, Muslims are human beings and most realize that life is not going to be normal with more than one wife.
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,890 posts, read 4,210,609 times
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I don't really think that it is all that important if Mohammad wrote the Quran, it's the message that is important not the one who brought it. This is the trap that most religions fall into, they become "Lovers of the lamp, instead of Lovers of the light."
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Old 01-01-2009, 10:29 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,581,196 times
Reputation: 4979
Yes the message, whatever it is, is more important than the messenger. Agreed.
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