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Old 01-05-2009, 10:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elnasr View Post
Islam simply means peace, i have travel to many parts and reading alot what people are saying about Islam. Sorry you all got it wrong. People committing suicide bombing is not Islam, "anybody that kill himself he will be punished in here after"so what those islam have to do with terrorism? Muslim killing his fellow muslim as a result of suicide bomb, is that Islam?NO. That is peoples choice, What war do Islam know? "HOLY WAR" that is it, islam indicate to marry four(4) wives (IF) you will be justly to all of them , feed them and their children,provide shelter to them and equality of love.Please Islam is not a religion of killing but a religion of peace, a good muslim is different from others....Most of the people involved in this killings are the others who call them selves Muslim....ALLAH AKHBAR....

Share your ideas with me in other for the world to know the real background of Islam, If you have questions please say them, its all knowledge.....
Islam has beautiful principles . . . but why do they only apply to other Muslims who believe? Why is it condoned by Allah to lie and deceive and kill infidels or subject them to dhimmitude under Sharia law? Your HOLY WAR or Jihad . . . The war between the region of Islam (dar al Islam) and the region of war (dar al harb) is supposed to last so long as unbelief exists. According to Mawardi, the Muslim “should give battle with the intention of supporting the deen [religion] of Allah ... and of destroying any other deen which is in opposition to it: “so as to render it victorious over all [other] deen even if the mushrikun detest it.” (Koran 9:33) How is this peaceful?
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:06 AM
 
820 posts, read 1,083,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Islam has beautiful principles . . . but why do they only apply to other Muslims who believe? Why is it condoned by Allah to lie and deceive and kill infidels or subject them to dhimmitude under Sharia law? Your HOLY WAR or Jihad . . . The war between the region of Islam (dar al Islam) and the region of war (dar al harb) is supposed to last so long as unbelief exists. According to Mawardi, the Muslim “should give battle with the intention of supporting the deen [religion] of Allah ... and of destroying any other deen which is in opposition to it: “so as to render it victorious over all [other] deen even if the mushrikun detest it.” (Koran 9:33) How is this peaceful?
Sounds a little too literal to me.
One factor could be that ,historically , during the very early years , Islam competed against religious and social practices that were repugnant to almost any modern , respectable ethical system.

I would like to learn more about Muslim the "People of the Book"
concept as applied to other ( especially Abrahamic ) faiths.
That's mostly a question directed to person who started the thread ,
or other practicing Muslims.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:28 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,580,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Islam has beautiful principles . . . but why do they only apply to other Muslims who believe? Why is it condoned by Allah to lie and deceive and kill infidels or subject them to dhimmitude under Sharia law? Your HOLY WAR or Jihad . . . The war between the region of Islam (dar al Islam) and the region of war (dar al harb) is supposed to last so long as unbelief exists. According to Mawardi, the Muslim “should give battle with the intention of supporting the deen [religion] of Allah ... and of destroying any other deen which is in opposition to it: “so as to render it victorious over all [other] deen even if the mushrikun detest it.” (Koran 9:33) How is this peaceful?
Your use of quotes is confusing. You have the start of the quote in red, then continue with another quote starting and ending in green.

According to the Quran I have on hand, which apparently was printed in Madinah, Saudi Arabia. ( I regret that I cannot find the translator in English but it was printed in SA at the King Fahd Holy Quran Printing Complex)

Surah 9 Ayah 33 Reads:

It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance And the Religion of Truth, To cause it to prevail (1290) Over all religion, Even though the Pagans May detest (it).

In the commentary, 1290 says "Every religion which commends itself widely to human beings and lasts through some space of time has a glimpse of truth in it. but Islam being the perfect light of truth is bound to prevail. As the greater light, through its own strength, outshines all lesser lights, so will Islam outshine all else, in spite of the displeasure of those to whom light is an offense."

This is very different than the version presented above (by the way, did you have a copy of the Quran or did you get this off the internet somewhere? If it is off the internet can you post the link?, thanks)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbear48 View Post
Sounds a little too literal to me.
One factor could be that ,historically , during the very early years , Islam competed against religious and social practices that were repugnant to almost any modern , respectable ethical system.

I would like to learn more about Muslim the "People of the Book"
concept as applied to other ( especially Abrahamic ) faiths.
That's mostly a question directed to person who started the thread ,
or other practicing Muslims.
"People of the book" are Jews and Christians.
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,580,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbear48 View Post
This is the real deal:

Check this out:
Michael Yon - Online Magazine

Click on " Bless the beasts and children".
Listen to Cpt "Baker". Listen to the Americans who went in behind Cpt Baker's company.

Warning: Graphic pic's of AQI war crimes against Sunni villagers.
omg, so sad.

how do you listen to captain baker?
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Old 01-05-2009, 11:47 AM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Your use of quotes is confusing. You have the start of the quote in red, then continue with another quote starting and ending in green.
The OP wanted conversation and questions directed to clarifying the concepts of Islam as a peaceful religion . . .NOT a debate over concordance and translations. I asked very specific questions related to that goal based on extensive knowledge of the Quran and Islam's GOAL (especially its bloody history of worldly conquest) I have not received any answers or explanation of how such could be reconciled with a vision of Islam as a "peaceful" religion.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 12,320,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The OP wanted conversation and questions directed to clarifying the concepts of Islam as a peaceful religion . . .NOT a debate over concordance and translations. I asked very specific questions related to that goal based on extensive knowledge of the Quran and Islam's GOAL (especially its bloody history of worldly conquest) I have not received any answers or explanation of how such could be reconciled with a vision of Islam as a "peaceful" religion.
The problem, as I see it, would be this. Technically, the Quakers and Fred Phelps's pond scum in Topeka are all part of Christianity. Both believe they are following the letter and spirit of Christ's teachings. Everyone gets along with the Quakers; you almost have to be sociopathic not to. No one gets along with Phelps; to like him is to write one's bigotry in flaming script.

The Christians whose Christian vision looks like a modest used Honda Accord and real quiet religious services, for them Christianity is a very peaceful religion. Those for whom it looks like a braying lunatic standing on a vacant lot outside a funeral holding up outrageous slogans and having a little girl trample the flag while police hold back a regiment of counter-demonstrators, for them Christianity is not a very peaceful religion. Yet both sides refer to the same Bible.

Thus it is with Islam. The Fred Phelps Muslims, if you will, and the Quaker Muslims don't have much in common. And as you might suppose, there are plenty of both. I met Muslims in Turkey I'd be delighted to have as my neighbors, here or there. I met Muslims in college one simply could not reason with. Global faiths become so varied within themselves as to defy much generalization even about the way they view their scriptures.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,580,027 times
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The quote I provided sounds peaceful enough.

Yours does not.

How can I reconcile Islam as peaceful with the quote that you provided, esp. when you will not say where you got it for me to verify it and read any explanations regarding it? And isn't explaining the difference in the two quotes relevant to the discussion?

Why can you not just say where you got the quote?

By the way, what IS the GOAL of Islam?
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:22 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,040,557 times
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hi MysticPhD : thank you for your questions
i just want to start with very simple question for you

when God encourage his follower to fight for defend themselfs if others imposed the wars against them , do you consider that violent relegion

do you think that the peacefull men have no rights to defend themselfs if others tried to kill them ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Islam has beautiful principles . . . but why do they only apply to other Muslims who believe?
it dosn't

"God does not forbid you (O'muslims) from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)"
arabic word of "showing kindness " is "Bir"
this word is the highst level of rightious behaviour , quran always use this word according to our relation with our parents
in this verse God used the same word to describe how should muslims deals with nonmuslims
Quote:
Why is it condoned by Allah to lie and deceive and kill infidels or subject them to dhimmitude under Sharia law?
are we condoned by allah to lie and decieve ? can you show me the verses ?
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"


about the dhimmitude under shariah

The Muslims have to pay taxes (which is 2.5 percent of their annual income) under the name of "Zakah" to the "Muslim Financial Institute" or the "House of the Muslim Money" which all goes to provide welfare to the poor and the needy citizens; from both Muslims and non-Muslims. The poor and the needy (such as the Orphans, Widows and the disabled) from the Muslims are exempt from paying taxes.
The non-Muslims have to pay a varrying amount under the name of "Jizyah", depending on their situation, which is taxes that don't go to help poor and needy Muslims, but instead, it goes to the government to (1) Provide protection for them since they are a minority; (2) Provide means for them to practice their religions freely by building Temples or Churches for them.

Christians might use Surah 9:29 to show that Muslims must fight them until they pay the Jizya, so this shows discrimination. However, this also applies to the Muslims who do not pay their Zakat! Abu Bakr fought against the Muslims who didn't pay Zakat.


Quote:
Your HOLY WAR or Jihad . . . The war between the region of Islam (dar al Islam) and the region of war (dar al harb) is supposed to last so long as unbelief exists. According to Mawardi, the Muslim “should give battle with the intention of supporting the deen [religion] of Allah ... and of destroying any other deen which is in opposition to it: “so as to render it victorious over all [other] deen even if the mushrikun detest it.” (Koran 9:33) How is this peaceful?
first of all " holy war " isn't islamic concept
this concept actually raised by christians during the time period of the Crusades

The non-Muslims who were Arab Christians never faced any harassment from the Islamic Government. Their churches were honored. They never were prevented from visiting their Holy Places at anytime.

Let me give you few examples to further support my proof. Around 1400 years ago, when the Muslims finally reached Palestine, and spread the Truthful religion of Islam to the people there, Caliph Omar (may Allah Almighty be pleased with him and rest his soul) came and prayed in the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Right next to that Mosque, there was a Christian Church. The Caliph refused to pray in that Church (back then it was a way to show honor and respect if you pray in others' Holy Temples) because he feared that Muslims someday would consider that Church as a special Islamic site (since the Caliph would've prayed in it) and force it to be a Muslim Mosque.
He prevented that possibility from happening, and that Christian Church is until today a Christian Church. Christians in the Middle East never faced any problems from Islamic governments.

Another example is during the time when the Muslim leader Salahu-Deen Al-Ayyobee liberated Palestine from the Crusades. He immediately announced that all Christian and Jewish Pilgrims are welcomed to come and visit the Holy City Jerusalem and perform their Worships there in peace. He assured them their safety, even though our Islamic History tells us that the first British Crusades Leader, Reno, had slaughtered Muslim Pilgrims before when they were heading toward the Holy City of Mecca in what we call today Saudi Arabia.

if you need other exampels from the prophet mohammed (pbuh) and his companions , you are wellcome
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:20 PM
 
40,117 posts, read 26,779,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
Thus it is with Islam. The Fred Phelps Muslims, if you will, and the Quaker Muslims don't have much in common. And as you might suppose, there are plenty of both. I met Muslims in Turkey I'd be delighted to have as my neighbors, here or there. I met Muslims in college one simply could not reason with. Global faiths become so varied within themselves as to defy much generalization even about the way they view their scriptures.
While a "braying lunatic standing on a vacant lot outside a funeral holding up outrageous slogans and having a little girl trample the flag while police hold back a regiment of counter-demonstrators" is hardly peaceful . . . it pales in comparison to the Jihad that established Islam (and was barely stopped at Tours and prevented from dominating all Europe). There is something inherently more non-peaceful about worldly conquest for Allah to subject everyone to Sharia law . . . so long as unbelief exists.
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Old 01-05-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 12,320,380 times
Reputation: 10018
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
While a "braying lunatic standing on a vacant lot outside a funeral holding up outrageous slogans and having a little girl trample the flag while police hold back a regiment of counter-demonstrators" is hardly peaceful . . . it pales in comparison to the Jihad that established Islam (and was barely stopped at Tours and prevented from dominating all Europe). There is something inherently more non-peaceful about worldly conquest for Allah to subject everyone to Sharia law . . . so long as unbelief exists.
Okay, swap Phelps for an abortion clinic bomber. Not comparing either to what Martel smacked down, just making the point that all faiths have different peoples interpreting their books differently in real life. Of course, if we are taking historical Tours, we shouldn't miss Acre and Jerusalem and Godfrey of Bouillon (which to me always sounded like a savory soup).
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