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Old 01-01-2009, 03:46 AM
 
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So do Muslims believe in the blood atonement of Christ? Or is this mainly a Judaic or even a Christian Covenant?

Is there anything in the Quran about the shedding of blood for the remission of sin? Or how else do you see the reconciliation between what Adam did until us(meaning sinners),,,and God? You do believe that sin or darkness cannot be in the presence of God, right?
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Old 01-01-2009, 04:14 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
So do Muslims believe in the blood atonement of Christ? Or is this mainly a Judaic or even a Christian Covenant?
no , we don't believe in that , actually we believes that jesus is prophet and that God saved him from curcifixion (he raised him up alive )

and we believe that every one is responible of his own deeds , and we believe that adam's sin is allready forgiven


Quote:
Is there anything in the Quran about the shedding of blood for the remission of sin? Or how else do you see the reconciliation between what Adam did until us(meaning sinners),,,and God? You do believe that sin or darkness cannot be in the presence of God, right?
no there is nothing in quran about shedding of blood for the remession of sin , unless commiting crimes against society

reconciliation between sinners and God requires 3 things
1- repent
2-ask forgivness from God
3- make amends , and do rightious deeds , and not return to sin again

i don't undersand what do you mean by " sin can't be in the presence of God" can you please declear this question ?
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:34 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,891,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
no , we don't believe in that , actually we believes that jesus is prophet and that God saved him from curcifixion (he raised him up alive )

and we believe that every one is responible of his own deeds , and we believe that adam's sin is allready forgiven

no there is nothing in quran about shedding of blood for the remession of sin , unless commiting crimes against society
Herein lies the problem. The Quran itself tells all Muslims to believe in the Torah (1st Five Books by Moses) and also the various books of the Prophets & Psalms and the 'Injil' (the four Gospel accounts of Jesus life & ministry). The Muslim belief is that none of these wrtings are in conflict with each other , and yet we find major points of conflict throughout. When these points are mentioned and proven, then we are told that the Torah & 'Injil' have been corrupted. But that is impossible, since the oldest and purest manuscripts of these books are still in existance of the 'Injil' & Torah and are locked away in Museums and Libraries for our benefit. Not even Christendom or Judaism have ownership or access directly to them. Only copies or photographs of the originals can be obtained. The oldest of these are at least 1000 years older than the Quran itself and therefore were pointed to by Muhammad as being authentic and to be believed.

Clearly, the insistence of refuting any of these writings and their content when a contradiction is proven, destroys any hopes of having any type meaningful discussion whatsoever.

Last edited by bluepacific; 01-01-2009 at 05:48 AM..
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Old 01-01-2009, 11:45 AM
 
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Microsoft created winodows Version 1 , 2, 3, 95, 98, 2000, xp and vista
They are all by Microsoft

And they decided and announced that they will not support any version before version so and so by date so and so.

Regardless of the corruption and alteration of the previous holy books they are over written by the Quran

The Quran is not only for the people of Prophet Mahammad peace and blessing upon him
It is for the whole world
It is the last holy book
It is a dynamic miracle for every era
And it tells who is going to be rewarded or punished

And it is not corrupted it is saved by Allah it is by its original language
It is not human composition
It is Allah style and his own words
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:37 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,891,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
Microsoft created winodows Version 1 , 2, 3, 95, 98, 2000, xp and vista
They are all by Microsoft

And they decided and announced that they will not support any version before version so and so by date so and so.

Regardless of the corruption and alteration of the previous holy books they are over written by the Quran

The Quran is not only for the people of Prophet Mahammad peace and blessing upon him
It is for the whole world
It is the last holy book
It is a dynamic miracle for every era
And it tells who is going to be rewarded or punished

And it is not corrupted it is saved by Allah it is by its original language
It is not human composition
It is Allah style and his own words
I've discussed this time and again and it simply get's nowhere. Either the Quran, Muhammad or Angel Gabriel or perhaps all three are lying when they say to make sure of the truth by refering to the Sacred Holy Scriptures, (Torah - Psalms - Injil). However as we have noted, in many of the discussions here on this very forum, where adherents of the Muslim faith are intelligently, factually and Scripturally backed into a corner and contraditions are proven, then they simply fall back into the old standard of simply saying, "Your Bible has been corrupted". Even though the Quran/Muhammad/Angel Gabriel all insisted that at the time of the Revelations given to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, there was no mention of any corruption of the Holy Scriptures from that time of 630 A.D.-633 A.D. That being the case, as I've stated before, there are literally hundreds of Holy Scripture manuscripts available to cross reference to find any such corruption and there is none. Many of these are hundreds and even over a thousand years older than the Quran. To say that there has been corruption, is to say God has no ability to manuver things to keep his own word pure and clean. However, there is a special Islamic rule which allows for this changing of belief whenever they see fit. I'll mainly explain this to those who are outsiders to Islam , because I doubt it will get anywhere with any Muslim adherents. Although I suppose there is always hope.

There is a doctrine of their Islamic Law called "Abrogation and Cancellation".

Basically, it allows them to change their mind and believe whatever or whenever they (Religious Clergy) deem it necessary or expedient to whatever their present agenda is at any one time. To illustrate, here's a link to a United States rule called "Abrogation Doctrine" which allows the United States government to overrule or cancel any Constitutional Law in the interests of any new U.S. Government policy. No doubt, such a rule would be used in any future cancellation of Freedom of Worship, Speech, etc if they found it necessary. Even the disolutionment of the U.S. Constitution in favour of becoming part of the final one world government, United Nations if they so see fit. Please don't get upset, that is what the law/doctrine allows to be done in the extreme sense.

Abrogation doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here now is the Islamic version of Naskh (Ktasfir) or "Abrogation" as it has been translated, and exactly what it allows them to do, say and believe. It should also explain many of the contraditotry responses many here get when you try and reason with many of the Islamic members of C-D forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(exegesis)

"Abrogation and Cancellation"

In the very Quran itself we do find admission of self contradictions in that it claims for itself the right of "Abrogation" or "Cancellation". Muhammad's own critics had complained that he had contradicted himself, and so he taught that whenever a subsequent revelation contradicted a previous one, the second cancelled or abrogated the first one. Here's an example:
Quote:
"None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or the like. Knowest thou not that God hath power for all things?"
Sura 2:106 &Sura 16:101
Since both the former or cancelled verse and the one that came later and does the cancelling or abrogating remain in the Quran it can be easily seen how there would be contradictions in the Quran. Especially is this possible in view of the fact that it is not at all certain when each Sura was "revealed", and therefore it cannot always be determined which is the abrogating and which is the abrogated text.

Here's where we have the problem, because many modern Muslims, including our respected guest on this very forum, object to all of this and claim that what Muhammad was refering to as being cancelled or abrogated was not anything that appeared in the Quran, but only such things as may have been written in the Torah (Hebrew Scriptures O.T.) or the 'Injil' (Christian Gospels). However, to make such a claim is to deny testimony of history, which shows why Muhammad was accused of being a forger, as well as to ignore the context of the Quran. Please take note that this claim is only made by modern Muslims, because the past testimony of the most noted Muslim scribes and Ismams of times past is to the effect that both texts, cancelled and those doing the cancelling are in the Quran itself. Here a famous well known ,
Muhammad Ibn Zakariya ar-Razi was asked if a philosopher can follow a prophetically revealed religion, he said:
Quote:
"How can anyone think philosophically while listening to old wises' tales founded on contradictions, which obdurate ignorance, and dogmatism?"
Here are Razi's comments on Sura 16:99, 100:
Quote:
"The commentators without exception hold that cancellation has it's place in the present law."
And regarding Sura 4:14 which deals with the penalty to be inflicted upon unfaithful wises, Razi says:
Quote:
"The school of Aba Hanifa holds that the text [in the Quran] commanding imprisonment was cancelled by the one commanding stripes."
(Whipping, punishment, whipping by Stripes)
Commenting on Sura 2:102 Razi states that a passage may be cancelled and yet remain in the Quran. Any of you may want to likewise look up many similiar comments on "Abrogation & Cancellation" by other authoritive Muslim commentators that have expressed like views. At least three others that i am aware of are Beidhawi , Lelaleim and Abdulla. If anyone wish to verify Mr Razi's statements, then please, by all means Google him!

I think everyone get's the point. The Bible on the other hand presents no such difficulties. When properly understood it is sound from front to back. We would expect such a harmonious book if indeed it is the word of God. Generally those that claim the Bible contradicts itself do so only because they fail to distinguish between the literal and the figurative or symbolic language. Or perhaps it's because they fail to take into consideration the context, or because they are lacking objectivity. How often have we seen that here ???

I don't mean any disrespect to anyone here, but in view of the foregoing we cannot escape the conclusion that neither the message of the Quran nor it's literary merit recommends itself to us as something from a divine origin. It's a similiar problem for the Book of Mormon whose founder claimed to be an inspired Prophet, and who also lacked good literary skills which had to be cleaned up in latter editions by future Church Clergy. Also the fact that , like the Quran with it's latter literary editions of the Hadith & Shariah law, the Book of Mormon had to be followed up by other books to explain and clarify other seeming contradictions in Joseph Smith's divine revelation. These of course are Pearl of Great Price & Prophets and the Covenants and any other books necessary for future changes, of which there are many outstanding ones like polygamy & admission of darker races. Again , no offense meant, but it is an uncanny similiarity. Here's something profound that the Bible says about itself and it's author.

James 1:17
Quote:
"Today's New International Version"
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

"The Message Bible"
"Every desirable and beneficial gift comes out of heaven. The gifts are rivers of light cascading down from the Father of light. There is nothing deceitful in God, nothing two faced, nothing fickle."
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:06 AM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,063,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah who will return in the end? I watched some videos that said you did, and now this fascinates me...

The Prophet Mahammad (peace_be_upon_him) said:

There is no prophet between me and him, that is,
jesus (peace_be_upon_him).
He will descent (to the earth).
When you see him, recognise him:
a man of medium height,
reddish fair,
wearing two light yellow garments,
looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet.
He will fight the people for the cause of Islam.
He will break the cross,
kill swine, and abolish jizyah.
Allah will perish all religions except Islam.
He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die.
The Muslims will pray over him.

(Book #37, Hadith #4310)
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:28 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,891,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
The Prophet Mahammad (peace_be_upon_him) said:
Allah will perish all religions except Islam.
He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die.
The Muslims will pray over him.
So Muhammad said that Allah would come to Earth and destroy non-believers, then he would die and all faithful would pray for him ???

What keeps the Earth ticking then
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in the middle
600 posts, read 1,153,983 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
pssst...sorry to bud in since I am not a muslim but many Christians believe Islam's messiah to be the anti-christ
Sorry to butt in myself but some of those same Christians (who believe Islam's messiah to be the anti-christ) also believe that the Islamic "Jesus" is the false prophet.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:21 AM
 
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wait... now I'm confused..

I thought Obama was the anti-christ..
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:32 AM
 
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Christians take their information about Jesus from the Bible, which includes the Old and New Testaments. These contain four biblical narratives covering the life and death of Jesus. They have been written, according to tradition, respectively by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are placed at the beginning of the New Testament and comprise close to half of it.
Encyclopedia Britannica notes that "none of the sources of his life and work can be traced to Jesus himself; he did not leave a single known written word. Also, there are no contemporary accounts written of his life and death. What can be established about the historical Jesus depends almost without exception on Christian traditions, especially on the material used in the composition of the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke, which reflect the outlook of the later church and its faith in Jesus.

The Bible - A Closer Look!
Islam Tomorrow .com
Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
IslamInfo.com (http://www.islaminfo.com/new/jesus.asp - broken link)
IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
IS THE BIBLE GOD'S WORD? - By Ahmed Deedat
The Islamic and Christian views of Jesus: a comparison
Jesus: The Islamic and Christian Views Compared
THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
The Truth about Jesus Christ
Christ in Islam
http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Christ.htm (broken link)
Mary & Jesus in Quran
IslamWorld:

None of the Bible’s Writers Believed That Jesus is God
Islam Guide: The Bible Denies the Divinity of Jesus
Jesus Will Descend at the End of Time
Jesus Will Descend at the End of Time (Islaam.Com)
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