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Old 01-23-2009, 06:41 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
braderjoe wrote:

So muslim men should try to get a bunch of wives but help out with the dusting?
Not all muslim societies are like that in Saudi Arabia, please note that

Should try to get a bunch of wives? Muslims are commanded to take only 1 wife. They can only take more than one if they are able to treat each wife fairly and have the means to do that. Of course this practise is sometimes abused but then its the same with other practises am i right?
People condemn polygamy but consider this. Today in the world in many countries women are becoming the majority which means a large number of women will not be able to find a life-partner. What is the alternative then? Polygamy is one answer. The West looks down on this but If not polygamy, what then? Hyporacy in the form of illegal affairs, mistressess with bastard children etc etc. At least a 2nd wife will have all the rights, legal etc etc entitled to her and her children. What will the single woman do then? Same sex relationships which is a definate no-no in religion. Remain celibate? since sex outside marriage is a sin right no matter what religion you adopt
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Old 01-23-2009, 09:33 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
No, kdbrich, it is not ok to BEAT your wife in Islam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
the Quran says beat

but why do not you emphasize on the reasons
and the steps to cure this reasons


1- you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct,
2- admonish them (first),
3- (next) do not share their beds,
4- (and last) beat (tap) them (lightly);


the words that are between bracket are not from the arabic text of the Quran but only to clear out the word beat


the main purpose of this is to avoid the divorce and safe the family
moonsun, there is no such thing as "beat" lightly in English. I am not sure why this particular word was used in translation, and I checked and it is in the Quran I have in the house.

When a person asks you if "Islam allows a man to beat his wife" the answer is NO.

beat: according to merriam webster:: to strike repeatedly: a: to hit repeatedly so as to inflict pain —often used with up c: to strike directly against forcefully and repeatedly : dash against d: to flap or thrash at vigorously

If you read this definition of the word beat, then you would have to say that NO, Islam does not allow men to beat their wives.

Again, I don't know why this particular word was used in the translation, because there is no light "beating".

Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
Is it OK for the wife to "lightly tap" the husband? What does the Quoran specifically say about this, or is it not covered? This question is not directed at anyone in particular.
No, I am pretty sure the quran doesn't give the woman to lightly tap or "beat" the husband, but I could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Thankyou for your insight into your religion. I'm happy for you that you have a good relationship within it.

I have to say that what you are saying about a woman submitting to her husband even when she doesn't feel like it is something altogether different from her being forced to do so even when she has said no and really meant it, that is rape. When you say yes or submit willingly then that is your choice. When that choice is taken away, that is when it becomes a criminal act and that is the issue at hand.

I would like to know what (if any) consequence would there be if you adamantly said no and refused for whatever reason. Or would you not think of doing such a thing? This is not an attack or a judgement, I just really want to understand what the core belief is.
There is no consequence. No sex is no sex. And I wouldn't have to adamantly say no to start with. Just a regular no will suffice. That's my core belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I am dubious of your claim that young well educated western women are converting to Islam in the numbers that you are suggesting. They would have to reject everything they have been bought up to believe from what I can gather from the posts on this thread.
He really didn't suggest numbers unless I missed them. I have heard the figure of four women to every man, regarding converts. The converts are mostly women. Young and educated, I've never seen any stats on that (although, when I converted, I would have fallen into that category if you consider a college degree educated.)

I have several theories why there are more women converts. For one, muslim men can marry non-muslim (certain) women. Therefore, every muslim man that marries a non muslim woman exposes her to islam. If she is intelligent, she'll research the religion, and there is a chance that in doing so she'll decide to convert. I think this is the biggest reason you find more female converts to Islam.

On the other hand, Muslim women cannot marry non-muslim men. Therefore, there is not a large quantity of men exposed to religion from their spouses, although, I have known of at least three men who have converted to marry muslim women (not that they converted just to marry the women, although it would be necessary, I cannot speculate on their motives). I saw a story about a US soldier who converted to Islam in order to marry a woman he met while serving in Iraq. They now live in Florida, I believe.

In any case, if you compare male vs. female converts, of the two groups, I'd guess that females are more likely to have converted due to researching the religion, because there is no necessity for a woman to convert when she marries a Muslim man. My father in law has been married to a Christian woman for over 30 years. She has never converted. In the case of a man, he *might* be more likely to convert for other reasons, such as love, because he couldn't marry the woman w/out converting. (This is pure speculation on my part.)

I did google conversion/education rates and didn't come up with anything after a short period of searching, though, so I'd like braderjoe if you have any links to post them for us. I am curious myself.
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:10 PM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,991,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
...No, I am pretty sure the quran doesn't give the woman to lightly tap or "beat" the husband, but I could be wrong.
...
.
I have a sneaking feeling that quran has been written in a way that benefits men more than women. I will wait for others to reply to my post also. Another example of my above feeling is that it does not talk about the case when a woman can have multiple men as husbands. Things seem to be addressed more from viewpoint where male has the upper hand.
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:14 PM
 
40,046 posts, read 26,730,521 times
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Whatever your religion or lack thereof . . . it is simply not permissible for a man to physically strike a woman . . . except in self-defense . . . it is hard to imagine ever justifying such behavior as an act of love in a marriage. I could not accept ANY God that would countenance it. Of course the same holds true in the reverse. It would only be acceptable in an instance of aggression by either male or female aggressors. Rape is completely inexcusable. Sex without consent is pure evil . . . whatever your religion is.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 01-23-2009 at 10:30 PM..
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:27 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,441,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Thank you Ladyice for your comments though i believe if you really want to find out more about Islam, this is not the place. The liberal ones that I was quoting, i was referring to their lack of knowledge about their own religion or at best they have a surface knowledge of it but yet try to make their own renderings about Islamic laws etc. Its like would you refer your court case to an attorney who is not well versed in the juridical laws to defend you? In every family, there must be a head and the man is always encourage to be that..lead the household but that doesn't mean the woman is inferior.
In Islam, men and women are equal in their own ways. Alike in many ways but different in others. As an example, a mother is placed on a higher level than a father. When the prophet pbuh was asked who a person must show reverance to, he answered the mother. When asked after that, he replied the mother and yet again the mother before he finally answered the father at the 4th time. As the saying goes in Islam, heaven lies underneath the footsteps of a mother. This is just an example.
Regarding the conversion rates, google it. Im not making it up. And the relationship between a man and a woman in Islam is not that of a master and slave. Read the biography of the prophet Muhammad to find out the perfect example of a muslim male behaves but read from a biographer who is not biased (which is pretty hard to find) Karen Armstrong's book would be an ideal start. An example for you to digest regarding the prophet's examplary behaviour. Though he had many wives, he stitches his own clothes and helps with the housework! No Í'm king of the house business for him. This part i agree, not just muslim men but ALL men should follow his conduct

I had a good friend who was Turkish and he told me often of how revered the mother was in Islamic tradition. I don't necessarily think that that is the right way to be either. I believe in equality in the sense that the mother is just as important as the father and vice versa. They have different roles in a lot of households but even those roles are becoming less defined by gender. I don't think it's true that anyone needs to "lead" the household. I think that parents should have authority over their children but not each other. That is meant to be a partnership each deferring to the others area of expertise, be that what it may.

Yes men and women are different in a biological sense but that does not make one any more important than the other to me. It certainly doesn't give one dominion over the other. I think you seem fairly moderate in your beliefs and it certainly seems to me that you would not agree with the Cleric that said those things that bothered me so much. I'm all for people choosing the way they wish to live, as long as they do have a choice. Something I am not entirely convinced is the case yet.

I think this is as good a place as any to get an answer to these questions. There are Muslims who post on this site and I would much prefer to get it from the "horses mouth". To be honest I will not go and study Islam in any depth because religion of any description does not appeal to me other than an interesting human behaviour. I would much rather hear what people themselves believe and why. I get upset when I think a group of people are being down trodden or someone who is supposedly religious is inciting hatred and violence.
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:34 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,441,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
There is no consequence. No sex is no sex. And I wouldn't have to adamantly say no to start with. Just a regular no will suffice. That's my core belief.

I'm glad to hear it. Would you say that your relationship is typical in this regard or do you stand on the fringes of Islam? Would most Muslim women be able to say the same thing?
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:37 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,441,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
braderjoe wrote:

So muslim men should try to get a bunch of wives but help out with the dusting?

One would think that they would be too tired to do the housework!
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:46 PM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,471,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
My apologies if you thought I was referring specifically to you, which I wasn't.

You are right, there is a problem when people, myself included, say " we all this or that......." Because not everyone does anything, I suppose.

Didn't mean to offend you.
Not offended and there's no need to apologize.

I can see how one would be "on guard" perhaps if conversations tend to take a well worn path.


(not directed at you at all mo2 but I'll add it to this post while I'm here.)

Just for the record I don't care WHO you are or WHICH GOD or Supreme Being you believe in or NONE at all, you will never convince me that it is acceptable to discipline your significant other by physical means and rape is never ok. Anybody advocating it in a public place as a guide to others when it goes against the laws of the country you reside in will rightly be condemned.

Again I'll say I find it interesting that the spotlight has been shone on this particular man now given how old the comments are. If we're going to go back to shining a light on ignorant comments and behaviours from years ago then perhaps we should also be looking at the likes of Wayne Carey or Shane Warne or a plethora of others who need to learn what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. I wonder if these comments have been brought up because of the new Federal domestic violence initiative but then I see somewhere else around CD recently that Chopper Reid is now their poster child! It just boggles the mind really.
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Old 01-23-2009, 11:35 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,574,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
I have a sneaking feeling that quran has been written in a way that benefits men more than women. I will wait for others to reply to my post also. Another example of my above feeling is that it does not talk about the case when a woman can have multiple men as husbands. Things seem to be addressed more from viewpoint where male has the upper hand.
you would be right on that one too, only one husband per wife. Is there a religion that allows women more than one husband? Talk about whose the daddy......

There are Islamic things that yes, do seem to benefit the man. All I can say to that is that the Quran is an old book, and at the time the rights given to women were not matched. But we live in this day and age, and these rights are now common. However, it is said that the Quran is a guide for all time. But that is hard to reconcile when you read that a man can lightly tap the wife. It does lead people to believe that the man has been given the upper hand. I mean really, there is no call for any sort of tapping, as far as I am concerned. My husband shouldn't get to discipline me like I am one of his children! But there it is right there in the Quran. Luckily my DH and I are on the same page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I'm all for people choosing the way they wish to live, as long as they do have a choice. Something I am not entirely convinced is the case yet.
Well, no, some Muslims don't have a choice on the way they wish to live, I don't think anyone will argue this with you. You shouldn't be convinced of it. I think in certain places, politics and the politics of religion more than anything affects their ability to choose how to live.
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:49 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
There are many translations....Here is another.

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 4:34
although i'm sure that some of people allready figured the situation of women in islam in their closed mind and they will never confirm that they were misinformed even if all muslim women are satisfied in islam and within islamic marriage .
but for the sake of discussion and for the sake of whom trying to recognise other different cultures i will respond to this issue in general

so first of all , i should to quote the entire verse for more and complete understanding to the purposes of this verses
Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36
"(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

(35). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they(spouses) wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

(36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"

overall
Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.

beat them !!!
The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.

but honstly being native in arabic i have to say that common and majority usage of this word means hit , but in the basics of arabic language or literally it can be used for different meaning according to the context , and all of them are correct without deceives (and i can proof that from quran itself )

as for example the word "fight " which commonly used as to mean phsical fight , but it's not necessery to mean it as physical

so the big question is
am i honest when i say that this arabic word can to means " leave them" ?!!!!!!!
well check the entire verses to know (read the verse next of verse mentioned "beat them" )
and try to use your mind , not to use your hatred heart , please

very imporatant note
alla used the same words in the same Chapter (The Noble Quran, 4:94, )which tells me that "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:34 means to desert or leave

"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"
where Allah Almighty seems to allow men to hit their wives after the two warnings for ill-conduct and disloyalty, it could very well be that Allah Almighty meant to command the Muslims to "leave" the home all together and desert their wives for a long time in a hope that the wives would then come back to their senses and repent.


in the end
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"


Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"



peace to those who honest and follow the guidence

Last edited by elwill; 01-24-2009 at 01:11 AM..
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