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Old 01-24-2009, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Maple Shade, NJ
123 posts, read 250,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I'm glad to hear it. Would you say that your relationship is typical in this regard or do you stand on the fringes of Islam? Would most Muslim women be able to say the same thing?
In america at least this would be typical. All of my Muslim Sisters have this type of relationship with their husbands. And in Germany, My sister and the Muslim Sisters she knows there are pretty much the same. If a woman does not want to do something, she refuses and the husband does not force her.
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Old 01-24-2009, 02:27 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
244 posts, read 253,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
"(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Physical strength is not the measure of survival that it once was. I am wondering if this is an unhealthy way to consider women these days. Intelligence and the ability to produce in the workplace would seem to be much more vital and volatile than mere physical strength. I may also be clouded by American values, but it seems to me that women should be seen as equals. Is this just simply where cultures differ?
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Old 01-24-2009, 02:53 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,441,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
although i'm sure that some of people allready figured the situation of women in islam in their closed mind and they will never confirm that they were misinformed even if all muslim women are satisfied in islam and within islamic marriage .
but for the sake of discussion and for the sake of whom trying to recognise other different cultures i will respond to this issue in general

so first of all , i should to quote the entire verse for more and complete understanding to the purposes of this verses
Let us look at Noble Verses 4:34-36
"(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

(35). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they(spouses) wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

(36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"

overall
Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam. There is however a questionable condition where Allah Almighty seems to allow the husband to beat his wife, and that is after he gives her two warnings to stop showing ill-conduct and disloyalty.

beat them !!!
The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat". The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit". The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them. It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English.

but honstly being native in arabic i have to say that common and majority usage of this word means hit , but in the basics of arabic language or literally it can be used for different meaning according to the context , and all of them are correct without deceives (and i can proof that from quran itself )

as for example the word "fight " which commonly used as to mean phsical fight , but it's not necessery to mean it as physical

so the big question is
am i honest when i say that this arabic word can to means " leave them" ?!!!!!!!
well check the entire verses to know (read the verse next of verse mentioned "beat them" )
and try to use your mind , not to use your hatred heart , please

very imporatant note
alla used the same words in the same Chapter (The Noble Quran, 4:94, )which tells me that "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:34 means to desert or leave

"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"
where Allah Almighty seems to allow men to hit their wives after the two warnings for ill-conduct and disloyalty, it could very well be that Allah Almighty meant to command the Muslims to "leave" the home all together and desert their wives for a long time in a hope that the wives would then come back to their senses and repent.


in the end
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"


Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"



peace to those who honest and follow the guidence

Ok I have a few problems with this. First you have shown us a contradiction.You say that it is written that he may hit her after two warnings, this is one interpretation, it could be taken to mean he should leave her. Then you say it is written that he should not hit her which I am assuming is indicated by the same word, therefore it could also mean that he should never leave her. How do you know which is the right interpretation? Should it be that he should hit her and never leave her, or that he should leave her and never hit her? Or is the Quran contradicting itself by saying he should do something but then he should never do it?

You say that he should leave her until she comes back to her senses and repents.What if it is the man who is wrong? Should he repent? Is it ever the woman's choice to take him back? Is she able to divorce and marry again to someone who will treat her with respect?


The other problem I have is with your last paragraph. Are you implying that a women is crooked and impossible to "straighten"? That you should be kind to her because she can't help her obvious inadequacies??? If this is the case then I am highly offended by that. I'm guessing though that if that is what you do mean then you couldn't care less if you offended me or not.I am an inferior woman made of a rib, right? Not only is this statement ridiculous to anyone who has half a clue about evolution it implies that women owe their existence to men and that is even more ridiculous.
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Old 01-24-2009, 02:59 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,858 times
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the marriage example is as a project , if the managment system is good the project will succeed
father and mother represent the managment system of the marriage project , they form a team work
team work mean that every person is responsible for specific part ( the one which he good with ) according to certification and education of every member in this team .
this team somehow should to accept one of them to be the leader of this team , becuase it happens that differs and problems may be appeared during thier work

i think that the leader should to be clever , lovely , kind and patient and in the same time he should to be strict in his decesions to guide the project into sucess

what i want to say is that
if any organization have two leader with full authority in everything , so wait to see what will happen with first problem raises between them

i know arabic quote say
" ship unde-rcontroll of two captains will be drowned"

so are the woman and man are equal ?
offcourse , but everyone have his own responsability according to thier nature , and offcource they can to help each other

this is the practical and general sight of islam according to this issue
i hope if this example cleared what i want to say

and please excuse my poor language , i try my best

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Old 01-24-2009, 03:19 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,878 posts, read 31,757,930 times
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In my opinion marriage is an equal partnership...The advantage of this is that it make the best use of the strengths of each.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:25 AM
 
34,990 posts, read 34,741,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Not all muslim societies are like that in Saudi Arabia, please note that

Should try to get a bunch of wives? Muslims are commanded to take only 1 wife. They can only take more than one if they are able to treat each wife fairly and have the means to do that. Of course this practise is sometimes abused but then its the same with other practises am i right?
People condemn polygamy but consider this. Today in the world in many countries women are becoming the majority which means a large number of women will not be able to find a life-partner. What is the alternative then? Polygamy is one answer. The West looks down on this but If not polygamy, what then? Hyporacy in the form of illegal affairs, mistressess with bastard children etc etc. At least a 2nd wife will have all the rights, legal etc etc entitled to her and her children. What will the single woman do then? Same sex relationships which is a definate no-no in religion. Remain celibate? since sex outside marriage is a sin right no matter what religion you adopt
This is just bizarre. How thoughtful of polygamists to be so concerned for the poor unmarried woman statistically unable to find a life-partner, and how creepy to mind her sex life for her.

In the West women are independent beings who can freely make up their own minds. Where you're from women are denied access to birth control, education and so on and encouraged to become second- and third-wife chattel in order to keep them second class.

In the West women have the choice to marry or not, to subordinate themselves to their husbands for religious purposes or not, etc. Where you're from, they have no choice.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:36 AM
 
34,990 posts, read 34,741,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
although i'm sure that some of people allready figured the situation of women in islam in their closed mind and they will never confirm that they were misinformed even if all muslim women are satisfied in islam and within islamic marriage .
but for the sake of discussion and for the sake of whom trying to recognise other different cultures i will respond to this issue in general
Speaking of "hatred hearts" - anyone who beats someone else has a "hatred heart," and those who encourage it do also. How arrogant to belittle those who think beating or cruelty is wrong.

Why do you bother to say this - "Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam" - when you approvingly quote: "(And last) beat them." Don't preend to wonder what a particular word might mean.

Of course men can beat their wives if they want to, according to the Qur'an. Don't lie.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:49 AM
 
34,990 posts, read 34,741,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
In the event of a family dispute, the Qur'an exhorts the husband to treat his wife kindly and not overlook her POSITIVE ASPECTS (see Qur'an 4:19). If the problem relates to the wife's behavior, her husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem continues, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in deliberate mistreatment and expresses contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but NEVER ON THE FACE, making it more of a symbolic measure then a punitive one. Following is the related Qur'anic text:
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Men are the protectors and maintainers of women. because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) do not share their beds, (and last) beat (tap) them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (4:34)[/SIZE]
Why do you presume the husband is always right in these disputes? I wonder

The husband is encouraged to beat his wife, just not on the face where it will show
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Old 01-24-2009, 05:05 AM
 
5,006 posts, read 13,855,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
There are many translations....Here is another.

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them.

Compared Translations of the meaning of the Quran - 4:34
I don't see that this is much different than christianity here. But while a man may be out working to support a woman, and if the woman is not working outside the home, she is still working longer hours than the man, especially if she has children. If that is what you mean by support.

But to be obedient to a man or for the man to be obedient to his wife. No way. Neither my husband or I believe in this. I certainly believe if I were in a marriage where I was banished I would try to find a way out of that marriage, but if I were in a Muslim country I may fear for my life. And should I have that fear?

Quote:
Should try to get a bunch of wives? Muslims are commanded to take only 1 wife. They can only take more than one if they are able to treat each wife fairly and have the means to do that. Of course this practise is sometimes abused but then its the same with other practises am i right?
I don't see how you can ever have two wives and treat them equally. For one the women would be jealous of each other. And a new wife would always be treated as the more exciting woman for a while. But then I don't see how women are treated equally anyway since they are not equal to a man.

You know a woman can protect herself. She doesn't need a man for this unless she has not learned how to protect herself.

Still, the muslim religion is not far removed from Christianity, but modern day Christianity is far removed from the Bible. So in many ways Christianity has evolved except for the fundamentalists.

I have dated two Muslims in my life. The first man said if we ever married, and he didn't like how I treated the children or was unhappy with me he would take the children and go back to his country. Now that was scary. The second one I dated for a very long time. If he didn't like something I did he would explain why it bothered him and then end it in, "So you are not going to do this again, are you?" LOL. That was actually sweet in a way, and I certainly took his feelings into consideration, but when it was time for him to marry he got a Muslim women sent to him from Iran. I really liked the guy, but I am glad that I never married him. And of course this was back in the 70s when I didn't know better to not date Muslims. I say this because I could never get along with a Muslim any more than I could a Christian nor any man that did not consider me equal.

Last edited by Mattie Jo; 01-24-2009 at 05:24 AM..
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Old 01-24-2009, 05:23 AM
 
34,990 posts, read 34,741,449 times
Reputation: 6163
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
the marriage example is as a project , if the managment system is good the project will succeed
father and mother represent the managment system of the marriage project , they form a team work
team work mean that every person is responsible for specific part ( the one which he good with ) according to certification and education of every member in this team .
this team somehow should to accept one of them to be the leader of this team , becuase it happens that differs and problems may be appeared during thier work

i think that the leader should to be clever , lovely , kind and patient and in the same time he should to be strict in his decesions to guide the project into sucess

what i want to say is that
if any organization have two leader with full authority in everything , so wait to see what will happen with first problem raises between them

i know arabic quote say
" ship unde-rcontroll of two captains will be drowned"

so are the woman and man are equal ?
offcourse , but everyone have his own responsability according to thier nature , and offcource they can to help each other

this is the practical and general sight of islam according to this issue
i hope if this example cleared what i want to say

and please excuse my poor language , i try my best

Same way in Christianity. Two differences, though, are that Islam presumes the husband is correct in all matters - I suppose because he is allowed the religious education, and the wife is not - and Islam allows and encourages men to beat their wives. Not that wives should beat their husbands, but isn't this a bit one-sided...and in fact...not at all equal?

Another thing. The idea of the woman being completely covered with clothing so that no one but her husband may see her body is romantic, but it certainly has its damaging aspects. Psychologically this is an extreme tool to keep women objectified. If Islam is so intent on "personal responsibility," why presume men can have no control, no responsibility, over their feelings when it comes to women? (Burquas are fine by me; my point is the absence of "personal responsibility" requirements for men in this area, and the resultant punishment of women for it.)
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