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Old 01-24-2009, 05:36 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Ok I have a few problems with this. First you have shown us a contradiction.You say that it is written that he may hit her after two warnings, this is one interpretation, it could be taken to mean he should leave her. Then you say it is written that he should not hit her which I am assuming is indicated by the same word, therefore it could also mean that he should never leave her. How do you know which is the right interpretation? Should it be that he should hit her and never leave her, or that he should leave her and never hit her? Or is the Quran contradicting itself by saying he should do something but then he should never do it?
i said " seems to allow the husband to beat his wife " , but your point is clear anyway


i think that because Arabic is a complex language, and because Allah Almighty purposely and carefully chose certain words to be placed in certain Noble Verses, I strongly believe that Allah Almighty allowed for the interpretation of NOT beating wives to be valid.
In other words, a Muslim man would not be going against Allah Almighty's Divine Will if he doesn't beat his wife, and instead, deserts her by leaving the house and living for instance with his parents for a period of time until the disobedient wife comes back to her senses

Quote:
You say that he should leave her until she comes back to her senses and repents.What if it is the man who is wrong? Should he repent? Is it ever the woman's choice to take him back? Is she able to divorce and marry again to someone who will treat her with respect?
if you read the third verse ( i quote it before )
36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"

rightious muslim shouldn't be arrogant or vainglorious , bad husbands are exist i dosn't deny , but God will punish unjust people in heareafter

but responding to your question , the rightious and good muslim should to repent offcourse , and she are able to divorce him in the court , it's permissible in islam



Quote:
The other problem I have is with your last paragraph. Are you implying that a women is crooked and impossible to "straighten"? That you should be kind to her because she can't help her obvious inadequacies??? If this is the case then I am highly offended by that. I'm guessing though that if that is what you do mean then you couldn't care less if you offended me or not.I am an inferior woman made of a rib, right? Not only is this statement ridiculous to anyone who has half a clue about evolution it implies that women owe their existence to men and that is even more ridiculous.
No.
crooked rib NOT a defect of creation.
crooked rib NOT an insult to thinking.
It’s only a matter of design.

A required design for functioning inside the body.
A required design for protecting a most important organ inside the body… the heart.

and the prophet didn't say straighten it , he just asked men to deal kindly with them


A Prophetic tradition mentions:
‘Women are created from the rib, which is naturally crooked, and its crookedness is more at the top; if you try to straighten it by force it will break; if you leave it, it will stay as it is. So accept my advice and treat your wives with kindness.’

Contrary to your thoughts , ‘crooked’ is just another one of the many ways to simply articulate on a woman’s complexities and expansions of unique personality and temperament. A detail that is by no means regarded in Islam as a way to inferior a woman’s status or thinking to man’s, but rather to explain a normal trait functioning for humanity.

Basically, this tradition is every man’s guide to dealing with women in a just manner without imposing his thinking, or attempting to re-mould her in a manner harsh enough to break her spirit and wounding her heart.
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Old 01-24-2009, 07:05 AM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,990,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
you would be right on that one too, only one husband per wife. Is there a religion that allows women more than one husband? Talk about whose the daddy......
.
As you agreed later on in the post, I was pointing out that quran went into some rules of when a man can have multiple wives but not vice versa - to me it smacked of treating the woman as a property. Or, per one poster, allowing gentle tapping of the wife but not the husband (by the wife). Then one looks around and wonders why some clerics issue fatwahs against muslim female tennis player from India for "inappropriate attire", why men in Pakistan are not allowed to see a women's field hockey match, why women in Saudi do no drive, etc and comes to the conclusion that among the mainstream religions, in their current state, it is probably the most male-centric. As I said in an earlier post, a large part of this is also cultural -many muslim females in Turkey and India are much more "liberated" than in middle east. My feeling is they (along with muslims in the west) would answer many of these questions quite differently than a typical muslim female in Saudi.

Last edited by calmdude; 01-24-2009 at 08:01 AM..
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Old 01-24-2009, 08:17 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,869 times
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i said " seems to allow the husband to beat his wife " , but your point is clear anyway


i think that because Arabic is a complex language, and because Allah Almighty purposely and carefully chose certain words to be placed in certain Noble Verses, I strongly believe that Allah Almighty allowed for the interpretation of NOT beating wives to be valid.
In other words, a Muslim man would not be going against Allah Almighty's Divine Will if he doesn't beat his wife, and instead, deserts her by leaving the house and living for instance with his parents for a period of time until the disobedient wife comes back to her senses
I'm sorry if I am labouring the point but does this mean that he would not be going against Allah Almighty if he chose to interpret it in the way that allowed him to beat his wife? You are saying it allows him not to, but couldn't the opposite be true too and what is the common interpretation? I think you said before that it was most commonly believed to mean hit.


Quote:
but responding to your question , the rightious and good muslim should to repent offcourse , and she are able to divorce him in the court , it's permissible in islam


I'm glad to hear this. Much better than some Christian opinions I read on another thread. Is she also able to marry another man?

Quote:
No.
crooked rib NOT a defect of creation.
crooked rib NOT an insult to thinking.
It’s only a matter of design.

A required design for functioning inside the body.
A required design for protecting a most important organ inside the body… the heart.

and the prophet didn't say straighten it , he just asked men to deal kindly with them


A Prophetic tradition mentions:
‘Women are created from the rib, which is naturally crooked, and its crookedness is more at the top; if you try to straighten it by force it will break; if you leave it, it will stay as it is. So accept my advice and treat your wives with kindness.’

Contrary to your thoughts , ‘crooked’ is just another one of the many ways to simply articulate on a woman’s complexities and expansions of unique personality and temperament. A detail that is by no means regarded in Islam as a way to inferior a woman’s status or thinking to man’s, but rather to explain a normal trait functioning for humanity.

Basically, this tradition is every man’s guide to dealing with women in a just manner without imposing his thinking, or attempting to re-mould her in a manner harsh enough to break her spirit and wounding her heart.


I'm sorry I misunderstood you before. Thankyou for clearing this up for me.
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
Physical strength is not the measure of survival that it once was. I am wondering if this is an unhealthy way to consider women these days. Intelligence and the ability to produce in the workplace would seem to be much more vital and volatile than mere physical strength. I may also be clouded by American values, but it seems to me that women should be seen as equals. Is this just simply where cultures differ?
i used to agree with you manquaman
surely you are right , women actually are seen to be equals in the sight of islam
islam didn't prohibit our women to produce in the workplace , but from islamic point of view that the best for the children and the best for the society is that women take care of her home , his husband and her children
God in islam guide us to the best , that's all

you are talking about Intelligence and the ability of women at workplace .
but don't you think that raising of the children with complete attention is very great work either
anyway , it depends on the mothers
some motheres prefer to use her intellegence in work to gain money , while leaving her children with babysitter or whatever
others prefer to raises thier children by themselfs and teach them , which will strength her relation with them

anyway i just clarify the islamic view , but it's okey for women to work and produce and share her intillegence within society

and sorry for my delay answer , i was in my work
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:49 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delusianne View Post
Speaking of "hatred hearts" - anyone who beats someone else has a "hatred heart," and those who encourage it do also. How arrogant to belittle those who think beating or cruelty is wrong.

Why do you bother to say this - "Wife beating anytime and for any reason is never allowed in Islam" - when you approvingly quote: "(And last) beat them." Don't preend to wonder what a particular word might mean.

Of course men can beat their wives if they want to, according to the Qur'an. Don't lie.
i'm sorry , you have the rights to think whatever you want
i just trying to describe my understanding for quran as an arab muslim raised in muslims's society .
i don't need to lie and i dont ask you to trust me

peace
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Old 01-24-2009, 11:54 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I'm sorry if I am labouring the point but does this mean that he would not be going against Allah Almighty if he chose to interpret it in the way that allowed him to beat his wife? You are saying it allows him not to, but couldn't the opposite be true too and what is the common interpretation? I think you said before that it was most commonly believed to mean hit.
if someone interpret it as to be hit , so before he hit her , he must take under his consideration these teaching

1-Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

2-Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

3-Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135)"

4-Narrated Abu Huraira: "A man said to the Prophet , 'Advise me! 'The Prophet said, 'Do not become angry and furious.' The man asked (the same) again and again, and the Prophet said in each case, 'Do not become angry and furious.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 137)"

5-Abu Huraira reported: "I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: One is not strong because of one's wrestling skillfully. They said: Allah's Messenger, then who is strong? He said: He who controls his anger when he is in a fit of rage. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Virtue, Good Manners and Joining of the Ties of Relationship (Kitab Al-Birr was-Salat-I-wa'l-Adab), Book 032, Number 6314)"


6-Allah Almighty loves those who restrain anger: "Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men; for Allah loves those who do good. (The Noble Quran, 3:134)"



7-"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"


8-"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"

The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women.
He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear God in respect of women."
And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives."
And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good."
And: "The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is.


what can you say for someone ignore all these plain verses and commands of prophet , then pick this verse and justify his coward behaviour with hitting his woman !!!!!!!!!!!!

and what kind of hit it will be if it should to be without harchness or revilence ?
what is this kind of beat ?
you can beat your children for discipline them , and surely there are many means to do that without hitting them or revilence him , right ?
(plz , don't ask me if i meant that women are childs , becuse i don't mean it , i just try to give you many examples about nature of this word and it's different meanings)
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Maple Shade, NJ
123 posts, read 250,899 times
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Elwill,
I think you are doing an admirable job of trying to explain the Quran to everyone, but reading some of these posts it seems some people are not reading this thread with anything but a closed mind and are not seeing that you are trying to explain things without twisting the words or lying.

One thing to keep in mind for everyone here in this thread is that many people interpret their own religions differently, be they moderates or radicals. I have seen insensitive and "backwards" people from both islam, judaeism and cristianity. BUT they were all a minority of that paticular faith so I'm not going to down the whole community that believes in that religion just for the behavior of one or two members. We are all human beings and what we ourwselves believe in might not be what the person next to us believes.
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:28 PM
 
16,437 posts, read 19,131,529 times
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Since a woman is supposed to submit to her husband, how can a man rape his wife?
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:29 PM
 
16,437 posts, read 19,131,529 times
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"you can beat your children for discipline them"

In the US this is also forbidden by law. That's why we are going into the third generation of young people with no respect for authority or anything else.
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Old 01-24-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
"you can beat your children for discipline them"

In the US this is also forbidden by law. That's why we are going into the third generation of young people with no respect for authority or anything else.
why you didn't complete my statement ? i said either "and surely there are many means to do that without hitting them or revilence him"

i can beat my children to descipline them by many ways
for example
1- not give them money
2-not to buy for them their daily candy
3- not to play with them
4- not to take them to the garden in thier holiday

and i don't think that any law in the world can forbidden me to beat my children by this way
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