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Old 01-24-2009, 01:59 PM
 
16,437 posts, read 19,129,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
and i don't think that any law in the world can forbidden me to beat my children by this way
As a Christian, I believe that he who spares the rod hates his child. If you don't discipline them they will have great problems in life and it is our duty as parents to teach them right from wrong. I am agreeing with you. Existing law in the US would punish me for disciplining my children by removing them from my custody and charging me with "domestic violence" which is a felony, a serious crime. This is only one of many reasons our society is falling apart. People have gone away from the Bible's teaching and have lost their moral compass.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:12 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
As a Christian, I believe that he who spares the rod hates his child. If you don't discipline them they will have great problems in life and it is our duty as parents to teach them right from wrong. I am agreeing with you. Existing law in the US would punish me for disciplining my children by removing them from my custody and charging me with "domestic violence" which is a felony, a serious crime. This is only one of many reasons our society is falling apart. People have gone away from the Bible's teaching and have lost their moral compass.

I think elwill was using "beat" in a different way to what you are saying here. I think it is never OK to hit a child and his post explained clearly examples of what he meant but that is not the topic here. It's attitudes like this that has people turning away from Christainity in droves.

Last edited by Lady Ice; 01-24-2009 at 04:23 PM..
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Since a woman is supposed to submit to her husband, how can a man rape his wife?

That is exactly the attitude of the Muslim Cleric that this thread was about. Thankyou for clearing it up for me. Showing me that there are these types of attitudes on both sides of the fence between these two religions. That the Muslims and the Christians are really no different as I suspected all along. They both have their share of fanatics and they also both have their share of genuinely good and intelligent people.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Midwest
31,359 posts, read 19,608,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
As a Christian, I believe that he who spares the rod hates his child. If you don't discipline them they will have great problems in life and it is our duty as parents to teach them right from wrong. I am agreeing with you. Existing law in the US would punish me for disciplining my children by removing them from my custody and charging me with "domestic violence" which is a felony, a serious crime. This is only one of many reasons our society is falling apart. People have gone away from the Bible's teaching and have lost their moral compass.

Just so I understand you correctly: If your child does wrong by perhaps being violent with another child, you would become violent with that child to teach him/her that violence is wrong?
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,791,559 times
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Bideshi wrote:
Quote:
Since a woman is supposed to submit to her husband, how can a man rape his wife?
If you really believe that statement I would suggest that you get counseling. That isn't meant to be an insult or a post designed to start a flame war, I honestly think that your religious influence has caused you to think irrationally.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Midwest
31,359 posts, read 19,608,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Since a woman is supposed to submit to her husband, how can a man rape his wife?
Rape is a violent hateful act. Rape is about power. The only thing a man will accomplish by raping or forcing sexual relations with his wife is the loss of his wife's genuine love for him. After that, he can start to look forward to a lack of participation on her part. Love cannot be forced.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
if someone interpret it as to be hit , so before he hit her , he must take under his consideration these teaching

1-Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: "He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

2-Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

3-Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, 'The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135)"

4-Narrated Abu Huraira: "A man said to the Prophet , 'Advise me! 'The Prophet said, 'Do not become angry and furious.' The man asked (the same) again and again, and the Prophet said in each case, 'Do not become angry and furious.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, Number 137)"

5-Abu Huraira reported: "I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: One is not strong because of one's wrestling skillfully. They said: Allah's Messenger, then who is strong? He said: He who controls his anger when he is in a fit of rage. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Virtue, Good Manners and Joining of the Ties of Relationship (Kitab Al-Birr was-Salat-I-wa'l-Adab), Book 032, Number 6314)"


6-Allah Almighty loves those who restrain anger: "Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men; for Allah loves those who do good. (The Noble Quran, 3:134)"



7-"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"


8-"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"

The Prophet wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women.
He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear God in respect of women."
And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives."
And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good."
And: "The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is.


what can you say for someone ignore all these plain verses and commands of prophet , then pick this verse and justify his coward behaviour with hitting his woman !!!!!!!!!!!!

and what kind of hit it will be if it should to be without harchness or revilence ?
what is this kind of beat ?
you can beat your children for discipline them , and surely there are many means to do that without hitting them or revilence him , right ?
(plz , don't ask me if i meant that women are childs , becuse i don't mean it , i just try to give you many examples about nature of this word and it's different meanings)

Elwill, I don't think that you are of the same opinions as the Cleric that I've been talking about. I think you genuinely try to live in the best way you can within your religion and it must be very difficult to explain your point of view in a different language.

It appears to me that you are a reasonable type of person and interpret things in a positive way and I respect that. I'm not trying to insult you by asking the questions that I do, it has just taken me a while to be clear about what it is you actually think. I see contradictions and words that could be interpreted in the wrong way to do harm in religions other than yours as well. I am only talking about Islam because this was the religion that this hateful man was using to push his warped view of the world.

I think that Islam does place women below men and that they do not have the freedoms in Islamic countries that any human being should have and I think this is wrong. But, I don't think that all of you are like this and I'm glad to say I have had confirmation of this here.



I'm getting a little tired of the media focusing on these stories though and I wonder to what purpose. Are they stirring up trouble to make even more news? As has been pointed out, this guy said these things a few years ago, why make a news story of it now? I'd like to change direction now and focus on the media part in this.

Is the media to blame for a lot of the attitudes that have been displayed on here against Islam. Is this part of the propaganda war that always accompanies any physical one?
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:48 PM
 
Location: sweden
262 posts, read 491,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
Since a woman is supposed to submit to her husband, how can a man rape his wife?
Is this how you think?I mean seriously that is just stupid,if a woman doesn't wanna have sex with you,you can't and shouldn't make them.I despise rapists they f*****g disgust me.Men who rape women,well if you can call them a man,need their penis cut off and thats no exageration.Thats my opinion.
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Old 01-24-2009, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,874 posts, read 31,750,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
As a Christian, I believe that he who spares the rod hates his child. If you don't discipline them they will have great problems in life and it is our duty as parents to teach them right from wrong. I am agreeing with you. Existing law in the US would punish me for disciplining my children by removing them from my custody and charging me with "domestic violence" which is a felony, a serious crime. This is only one of many reasons our society is falling apart. People have gone away from the Bible's teaching and have lost their moral compass.
If this is your idea of how to raise a child, I sincerely hope you have no children and if this is the trash that your bible teaches it belongs in the trash can...Personally I have raised five children "sparing the rod" who are all grown now, and not one of them has had any "great problems" in their lives. You believers in that violent book need to come out of the dark ages.

I'm willing to bet that most violent inmates of penal institutions were raised with the methods you condone...Violence begets violence.
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Old 01-24-2009, 06:08 PM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,468,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i used to agree with you manquaman
surely you are right , women actually are seen to be equals in the sight of islam
islam didn't prohibit our women to produce in the workplace , but from islamic point of view that the best for the children and the best for the society is that women take care of her home , his husband and her children
God in islam guide us to the best , that's all

you are talking about Intelligence and the ability of women at workplace .
but don't you think that raising of the children with complete attention is very great work either
anyway , it depends on the mothers
some motheres prefer to use her intellegence in work to gain money , while leaving her children with babysitter or whatever
others prefer to raises thier children by themselfs and teach them , which will strength her relation with them

anyway i just clarify the islamic view , but it's okey for women to work and produce and share her intillegence within society

and sorry for my delay answer , i was in my work

And what if the woman doesn't have any children? Isn't a wife?
That's a lot of time for a woman to be spending her days doing housework, can't see that there's much value in that myself.
No value at all as far as Islam is concerned?

Elwill I appreciate you trying to clarify this but it just smacks of women being second class citizens to me. I'm not saying that all muslims interpret the Koran this way or that they practice literally but there are flaws in this document that aren't relevant in today's society and I'm really not sure why it hasn't been updated and those that would drag us back into the dark ages to be chattles haven't been educated to catch up.

And as yet, much and all as I appreciate you trying to clarify you've not said anything about the cleric who made the original comments and what you think of that OR what should be done about it. To me if Australia and the rest of the western world is to try to better understand the muslim way of life then one would have thought that when someone stands up and professes to be representative of Muslims and makes incorrect and inflammatory claims, good Muslims should DO and SAY something to counter them.
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