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Old 01-25-2009, 08:33 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,041,567 times
Reputation: 161

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
when you raised this topic , i ignored to respond because i felt that it's another hatred post against islam without any intendence from you to assure the information

but , once you asked for the openions of muslims themselfs in this forum , i responded to you that i disagree with him ( in page 4 i think ) , and i condemned him and i described my reasoning and discribed either why the cleric said that

but seems to me that you insist that muslims agree with him , i don't know why
if you give yourself chance to search in muslims sites you will find thier answers and thier reasoning the same as me
lady Ice
sorry , seems to me that i misunderstood you
and thank you mommytotwo for clarifying her position to me

have a good day

peace
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:44 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,583,225 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
you've got to be kidding yourself if you think that they aren't more liberated.
I didn't make a judgment about their "level" of liberation. Sure you can say they are more liberated but coming from the US that is not my kind of liberation. Anytime you are forced to do this or banned from that, I have a hard time using the word liberation in the same sentence.

according to merriam webster, Liberated: freed from or opposed to traditional social and sexual attitudes or roles

According to merriam websters definition of liberated, the use of the word liberated doesn't fit all women in Turkey for example, because the definition states that the women are "freed" from traditional social or sexual attitudes or role.

Yes many of these women feel they have been liberated, but others don't, they have not been "freed from" but "BANNED from" traditional social attitudes. There are certainly women there that want to continue wearing a headscarf but can't if they want to go to school. Tell THEM that they are now liberated.

If all women wanted to be free of wearing the headscarf, you would find DRASTICALLY less women in the US wearing the headscarf. (Basically the only ones left wearing it would be those under pressure from parents or husbands, and I am sure that this population exists)

In the US, women are not forced to wear the hijab. I would venture to say that the clear majority of those that do are doing it of their own volition and this country allows them the freedom to make that decision. We don't say, well you are going to a public school, there will be no outward displays of religion, take off the headscarf, take off the yamaka, take off the habit, we're not having any of that here. No, women here are free to decide one way or another. Women can go out in all manner of clothing, showing any part of their bodies or can go out covered up in enough fabric to clothe 10 kids. That is freedom if you ask me.

Forcing women in Turkey to not cover their heads is yes, more liberating for many women, but for others is is akin to forcing them to go out without being fully dressed.

What if someone said that we are oppressed here because we go topless on the beach. Then they decided to "un-opress" us and FORCED us to shed our bikini tops. HELLO! No one should force me to remove any article of clothing that covers what I feel should be covered. For muslim women that choose to wear it, that headscarf is covering a part of her body that they believe should not be seen but by a limited group of people. Who is anyone to take that away from her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by calmdude View Post
I am convinced that many women there are far far more liberated than those in Saudi.
Of course they are. Who would dispute that?
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Old 01-25-2009, 08:50 AM
 
4,172 posts, read 5,998,466 times
Reputation: 1199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
...Of course they are. Who would dispute that?
I thought you did in an earlier post. I was referring to a state of mind, not what someone forced you to do (like not wear a scarf).

Anyway, my main thrust in these examples again was related to the op - that the religion is tilted heavily in favor of males.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:00 AM
 
16,437 posts, read 19,168,425 times
Reputation: 9525
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
Just so I understand you correctly: If your child does wrong by perhaps being violent with another child, you would become violent with that child to teach him/her that violence is wrong?
Precisely
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:09 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,815,500 times
Reputation: 5455
Bideshi wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn
Just so I understand you correctly: If your child does wrong by perhaps being violent with another child, you would become violent with that child to teach him/her that violence is wrong?

Precisely
Please tell me you don't have children! That kind of parental control is what turns children into violent abusers when they grow up. Our prisons are full of them.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,930 posts, read 31,819,366 times
Reputation: 12657
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the Koran is much like the bible, in that different translations can be used to justify your behaviour...Some say beat your wife, another beat your wife lightly with tap in brackets ( added later) still another says scourge (whip) your wife. So whichever you choose to do, it will be correct according to the Koran. I agree with calmdude regarding Islam as a patriarchal religion, but then so is Christianity for those that take the bible literally. I believe most religions were set up by men and in most the woman was considered inferior.

It is good to see at least some Muslims ( as I see here) moving towards equality for their women, but there is still a ways to go. No husband owns or has the right to disipline his wife, as no wife has that right against her husband either, so the terms beat, tap or scourge should be redundant.
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:26 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,449,633 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the Koran is much like the bible, in that different translations can be used to justify your behaviour...Some say beat your wife, another beat your wife lightly with tap in brackets ( added later) still another says scourge (whip) your wife. So whichever you choose to do, it will be correct according to the Koran. I agree with calmdude regarding Islam as a patriarchal religion, but then so is Christianity for those that take the bible literally. I believe most religions were set up by men and in most the woman was considered inferior.

It is good to see at least some Muslims ( as I see here) moving towards equality for their women, but there is still a ways to go. No husband owns or has the right to disipline his wife, as no wife has that right against her husband either, so the terms beat, tap or scourge should be redundant.
As always I agree with you 100% Sanspeur.
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:30 AM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,066,875 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the Koran is much like the bible, in that different translations can be used to justify your behaviour...Some say beat your wife, another beat your wife lightly with tap in brackets ( added later) still another says scourge (whip) your wife. So whichever you choose to do, it will be correct according to the Koran. I agree with calmdude regarding Islam as a patriarchal religion, but then so is Christianity for those that take the bible literally. I believe most religions were set up by men and in most the woman was considered inferior.
.


the english quran is not the word of God but it is interpretation of the meaning
the arabic text is the actual word of God
there is no addition or subtraction in the arabic text
but any other language other than the arab there is addition usually it is put in brackets because it is interpretation of the meaning
the arabic text was not set by men it is the actual talks of God

but regarding the Bible i believe that there are so many interpretations was not in the original books of moses and jesus peace be upon them
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Old 01-25-2009, 11:46 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,897,947 times
Reputation: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the Koran is much like the bible, in that different translations can be used to justify your behaviour...Some say beat your wife, another beat your wife lightly with tap in brackets ( added later) still another says scourge (whip) your wife. So whichever you choose to do, it will be correct according to the Koran. I agree with calmdude regarding Islam as a patriarchal religion, but then so is Christianity for those that take the bible literally. I believe most religions were set up by men and in most the woman was considered inferior.

It is good to see at least some Muslims ( as I see here) moving towards equality for their women, but there is still a ways to go. No husband owns or has the right to disipline his wife, as no wife has that right against her husband either, so the terms beat, tap or scourge should be redundant.
I've actually tried to bring up the subject of "Abrogation and Cancellation" doctrine to them in other threads and they clam up. They refuse apparently to discuss it. It is a concept as you describe, but also employed by the Mormon Church and I'm sure other churches. It is a way of canceling something of Scriptural Verse and replacing it with something else to take it's place. The Quran is not their only holy book. The Hadiths , Shariah and one or two others, but I'm not sure. These are all said to be inspired. The Mormon's have as their main book of course the "Book of mormon" but also have Pearls of Great Price" , Doctrines & the Convenants", etc. In both cases, these later books were written to explain things not exactl coherent in the originally claimed inspirited writtings of their illerate authors.

In the Quran there is much admitted criticism against Muhammad not being able to perform miracles as did Moses and other true prophet claims in the bible. The Quran actually quotes Muhammad as saying such miracles are not necessary to prove the Quran as inspired and from God to Muhammad. However, the criticism persisted and so the Hadiths were created to tell the stories of miracles Muhammad performed, many of them fanciful as mentioned in the book of Mormon. Anyway, just interesting history.

It must be mentioned however, that even the Secular part of the United States government has it's own "Abrogation Doctrine" for the purpose of overiding some constitutional law into something more acceptable to the changing modern times. You can actually google this and i have posted it in another thread somewhere. Many in the United States look to the U.S. Constituon as it's own Bible which cannot be changed and any change would be sacreligious. However the "Abrogation Doctrine" can , has and will be used at some future point used as a trump card for any purposes deemed necessary to the benefit and survival of the United states. That may well be the taking away of freedom of religion.
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Old 01-25-2009, 12:15 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,066,875 times
Reputation: 91
the split of the moon was one of the miracles of the prophet Mahhammad prayer and peace upon him
the split was observed in chine and India

sura 54
The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain. (1)

And if they behold a portent they turn away and say: Prolonged illusion. (2)

They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts. Yet everything will come to a decision (3)

And surely there hath come unto them news whereof the purport should deter, (4)

Effective wisdom; but warnings avail not. (5)

So withdraw from them (O Muhammad) on the day when the Summoner summoneth unto a painful thing. (6)

With downcast eyes, they come forth from the graves as they were locusts spread abroad, (7)

Hastening toward the summoner; the disbelievers say: This is a hard day. (8)
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