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Old 01-26-2009, 02:34 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,203,735 times
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Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
that's contradictory. .
How do i explain? He created us..we are his servants or slaves. He can do what He pleases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
"why?" indeed! .
Well..from an Islamic theological view, its because before the world was even in place, all of us, all souls had made a pledge to worship Him when our time to be on earth came. That internal mechanism is what makes almost every society looking for a deity to worship. Unfortunate that along the way, some parts of society lost their way...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
By the definition of an infallible being, his words would be perfect. But you say they are not difficult to understand - then why are there so many different interpretations of Islam? The very division within Islam would indicate that they are in fact, difficult to understand. And that's not even taking into account the problems when they're translated to other languages. .
The many divisions esp with regard to practices are not a curse but rather a mercy from Him. The basic tenets of faith are fundatmentally the same for every division/group. Only the additional contents differ. So one can then choose which group one wants to be, be it very strict or more moderate groups etc etc. So we in effect are given a choice.

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Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
I have read his biography from Islamic-based websites and still not agreed with it.
Its a shame but then you are entitled to your views. To me what the prophet had done was remarkable. His love of his umma surpasses his love for his family. He could have anything in the world but he passed on virtually penniless. People have the wrong misconception that Islam was spread by the sword but this idea have been swept away by latterday historians. Rather the ppl from the conquered lands converted readily inspired by the character and conducts of the prophet's comapanions. And who do the companions model their character upon? None other than the prophet himself. Now...every spin of the globe, with every small rotation, the calls to prayers sound out..with the rejoinder that Muhammad is the messenger of God.. Ops..forgive my meanderings
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:53 PM
 
787 posts, read 1,548,893 times
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Quote:
How do i explain? He created us..we are his servants or slaves. He can do what He pleases.
and by being his slaves, we achieve what?

Quote:
Well..from an Islamic theological view, its because before the world was even in place, all of us, all souls had made a pledge to worship Him when our time to be on earth came. That internal mechanism is what makes almost every society looking for a deity to worship. Unfortunate that along the way, some parts of society lost their way...
from my view, many religions are the old way of trying to understand the universe. Whether they're true or not remains to be seen.

Quote:
The many divisions esp with regard to practices are not a curse but rather a mercy from Him. The basic tenets of faith are fundatmentally the same for every division/group. Only the additional contents differ. So one can then choose which group one wants to be, be it very strict or more moderate groups etc etc. So we in effect are given a choice.
So let me get this straight. Allah gives us the perfect text upon which to live. It's so perfect that it is easy to understand. However, despite it being easy to understand, Allah has been merciful enough to cause division (which is a wonderful thing since it has caused many conflicts) so that we can choose upon which way we would like to worship him (which means some groups are still not interpreting the Koran correctly). We can choose between moderate right through to strict, even though they achieve the same result? Is this a correct understanding?

Quote:
Its a shame but then you are entitled to your views. To me what the prophet had done was remarkable. His love of his umma surpasses his love for his family. He could have anything in the world but he passed on virtually penniless. People have the wrong misconception that Islam was spread by the sword but this idea have been swept away by latterday historians. Rather the ppl from the conquered lands converted readily inspired by the character and conducts of the prophet's comapanions. And who do the companions model their character upon? None other than the prophet himself. Now...every spin of the globe, with every small rotation, the calls to prayers sound out..with the rejoinder that Muhammad is the messenger of God.. Ops..forgive my meanderings
Its a shame but then you are entitled to your views. :P
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Old 01-26-2009, 03:03 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,203,735 times
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Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
and by being his slaves, we achieve what?
Paradise what else..eternal life...what the main religions convey except maybe each has its own interpretations..but the core of it is...life on earth is but a pitstop in the journey to the afterlife.

from my view, many religions are the old way of trying to understand the universe. Whether they're true or not remains to be seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
So let me get this straight. Allah gives us the perfect text upon which to live. It's so perfect that it is easy to understand. However, despite it being easy to understand, Allah has been merciful enough to cause division (which is a wonderful thing since it has caused many conflicts) so that we can choose upon which way we would like to worship him (which means some groups are still not interpreting the Koran correctly). We can choose between moderate right through to strict, even though they achieve the same result? Is this a correct understanding?
Differences in interpretations not in conflict. Maybe variety would be a better word. Divisions, turmoil...all these are tests that the faithful have to undergo..and i haven't thrown in Satan...but that will only complicate things further..

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Originally Posted by Spindle View Post
Its a shame but then you are entitled to your views. :P
Hehehe...we'll agree to disagree on that
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:38 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,452,988 times
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Regarding liberation - itsnt that one of those things where its a matter of personal interpretation? For example, feminists might pity those muslim women who wear headscrafs or even the veil and consider them oppressed. However, the shoe might fit the other shoe too as those muslim women who are veiled (and who have studied in-depth about their religion) might pity the feminists, for saying Women's Lib and yet in the same breath scrambling to get the latest outfits etc just to attract the opposite sex. Isn't that hyprocrital?

The difference is that liberated or "modern" women have a choice in what they will wear. I think this is an important point to remember. Do you agree with the Cleric of my original question? Do you think it's OK to hit a woman if she is disobedient or that it is impossible to rape your wife because it is her duty to submit?
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:58 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,042,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post

Differences in interpretations not in conflict. Maybe variety would be a better word. Divisions, turmoil...all these are tests that the faithful have to undergo..and i haven't thrown in Satan...but that will only complicate things further..
i think that he referenced his question to terrorist actions in the name of allah or insulting women and hit them .
i know that you are talking about 4 different shools as "shafia and hanbali and malik .....etc .
just clear this point to him

good work braderjoe
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Old 01-26-2009, 11:28 PM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,492,097 times
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Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
The difference is that liberated or "modern" women have a choice in what they will wear.....
Well it's true they have MORE choice about what they wear in public but I'm not so sure the modern or liberated woman is any better off than her Muslim counterpart when it comes to clothing. It's still the subject of enormous amounts of discussion and critiquing and stereotyping and Heaven forbid you make a fashion faux pas.

Not that I'll be racing out and investing in a head scarf or a head to toe outfit any time soon but let's not forget the huge fashion industry and the written and unwritten rules that a woman must follow in the Western world in order to be seen as worthy. It MAY or MAY NOT have a religious connotation to it but it's still there.
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:16 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,452,988 times
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Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
Well it's true they have MORE choice about what they wear in public but I'm not so sure the modern or liberated woman is any better off than her Muslim counterpart when it comes to clothing. It's still the subject of enormous amounts of discussion and critiquing and stereotyping and Heaven forbid you make a fashion faux pas.

Not that I'll be racing out and investing in a head scarf or a head to toe outfit any time soon but let's not forget the huge fashion industry and the written and unwritten rules that a woman must follow in the Western world in order to be seen as worthy. It MAY or MAY NOT have a religious connotation to it but it's still there.

I have never followed any rules nor have I felt unworthy in doing that. I used to get around in some bizarre outfits in my late teens.My friends and I went op-shopping and wore black makeup and hair. After that I lived in Bondi and wore mini skirts and midriff tops, I could even sun bath topless. I don't think I could do any of that if I were a Muslim woman and I don't think it would be just because I didn't want to, it would be because I wasn't allowed to...that is the difference. There might be a certain conformity in our culture but there is still a choice in whether you follow it or not.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:55 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,492,097 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
I have never followed any rules nor have I felt unworthy in doing that. I used to get around in some bizarre outfits in my late teens.My friends and I went op-shopping and wore black makeup and hair. After that I lived in Bondi and wore mini skirts and midriff tops, I could even sun bath topless. I don't think I could do any of that if I were a Muslim woman and I don't think it would be just because I didn't want to, it would be because I wasn't allowed to...that is the difference. There might be a certain conformity in our culture but there is still a choice in whether you follow it or not.
Perhaps. Agreed there are no "written rules" of conduct per se but I think you're kidding yourself if you think that you don't conform to the unwritten dress codes and presentation "expectations" in Western society to some degree.
I personally think of myself as non-conformist, it's a very "Aussie" way to think but fact is if I want the "job" and the job is in a conservative field, they're not going to look very favourably at my tattoos and I KNOW they'd never cope with how I dressed as a teenager. Of course they won't say that because we all know that would be discrimination but I'd say if a nice quiet young lady arrived wearing her Laura Ashley or me dressed as I used to dress, I doubt very much that they're going to choose me REGARDLESS of if we share the same qualifications or even if my qualifications are better. That's just the plain facts of life. Why did you stop dressing in your op-shop clothes and black hair and make-up? I mean I'm sure, like me it was a phase, BUT I also bet that at some point you realized that if you didn't change to fit the mold you wouldn't get where you wanted to be. I know if I'd kept shaving my head and wearing my rat tails and piercings I would have been on the dole FOREVER. Now perhaps you never made a conscious decision to conform or change your look, perhaps you've always felt that you are just being you and society hasn't forced you to conform but I think if you look, you will see that at least once in your life you've had to dress to impress or fit in. Might not seem like much but it doesn't always stop there. And even if we say that you have NEVER conformed, NEVER felt the pressure to conform, WILL NEVER conform, well nothing personal, but I'd say you're a REALLY small minority, maybe even of one. At some point in their lives Western women conform, they follow the unwritten rules of Western society or they will be ousted.
You only have to look at the political careers of women in this country these days. They wear a uniform. When they don't "suddenly" their ethics, moral fibre, ability to do the job comes into question. It's no coincidence that Julia Gillard had a "make over" of her image prior to the election and I'm quite sure had she not, she'd probably NOT be deputy PM now.

Yes, there are rules. In muslim society they appear to be fairly well known and pretty strictly adhered to in most cases because the consequences of breaking them are not particulary pretty in some places as far as I can see BUT this also holds true for women in Western society. The rules may not be written in the Koran, there may be a wider choice of "looks", they maybe different rules and perhaps the backlash for going against the unwritten rules isn't as obvious or the penalty as harsh but it's still there.

If you don't believe me, stick a hijaab on your head and go down to Bondi and do some topless sunbathing. I think the responses you'd get would be a VERY INTERESTING insight into the different kinds of attitudes to women and what they wear.

Just some observations I've made.
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Old 01-27-2009, 05:31 AM
 
49 posts, read 123,593 times
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Default Tolerance

Jesus preached tolerance and forgiveness: So did the great prophet Mohammed, peace and blessings be upon him.
It seems that his followers want to fight about it: surely any true believer would stop throwing stones and live in peace.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:02 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 899,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Didn't say you did.



Context is everything. You might find the meaning changes a lot based on it.
Ah, but God is not supposed to change. Yet he clearly condoned such thinking and behavior by his People in the OT.

Does anyone here seriously think that any nonbelieving person could get away with this sort of behavior? But, no, because the Muslim "religion" allows it/condones it, according to its own holy books, it is again bubble-wrapped by our supposedly tolerant, multicultural society.

I don't care how many people quote me the examples of "moderate" Muslims. Muslims, like Christians, should be willing to own and take responsbibility for their holy books. If some Muslims and Christians choose to ignore the uncomfortable parts of these books, in order to "adapt" better to the secular world, it certainly doesn't reflect well on the underlying religions. And it doesn't take account of the countless numbers of Muslims and Christians, some on this website, who do take their holy books very literally.

Again, as the aptly titled book states, religion poisons everything.
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