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Old 01-27-2009, 09:05 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,201,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
Ah, but God is not supposed to change. Yet he clearly condoned such thinking and behavior by his People in the OT.

Does anyone here seriously think that any nonbelieving person could get away with this sort of behavior? But, no, because the Muslim "religion" allows it/condones it, according to its own holy books, it is again bubble-wrapped by our supposedly tolerant, multicultural society.
Why do i get this impression that you still think Islam allows a husband to beat/whack his wife?
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:07 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 896,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
Perhaps. Agreed there are no "written rules" of conduct per se but I think you're kidding yourself if you think that you don't conform to the unwritten dress codes and presentation "expectations" in Western society to some degree.
I personally think of myself as non-conformist, it's a very "Aussie" way to think but fact is if I want the "job" and the job is in a conservative field, they're not going to look very favourably at my tattoos and I KNOW they'd never cope with how I dressed as a teenager. Of course they won't say that because we all know that would be discrimination but I'd say if a nice quiet young lady arrived wearing her Laura Ashley or me dressed as I used to dress, I doubt very much that they're going to choose me REGARDLESS of if we share the same qualifications or even if my qualifications are better. That's just the plain facts of life. Why did you stop dressing in your op-shop clothes and black hair and make-up? I mean I'm sure, like me it was a phase, BUT I also bet that at some point you realized that if you didn't change to fit the mold you wouldn't get where you wanted to be. I know if I'd kept shaving my head and wearing my rat tails and piercings I would have been on the dole FOREVER. Now perhaps you never made a conscious decision to conform or change your look, perhaps you've always felt that you are just being you and society hasn't forced you to conform but I think if you look, you will see that at least once in your life you've had to dress to impress or fit in. Might not seem like much but it doesn't always stop there. And even if we say that you have NEVER conformed, NEVER felt the pressure to conform, WILL NEVER conform, well nothing personal, but I'd say you're a REALLY small minority, maybe even of one. At some point in their lives Western women conform, they follow the unwritten rules of Western society or they will be ousted.
You only have to look at the political careers of women in this country these days. They wear a uniform. When they don't "suddenly" their ethics, moral fibre, ability to do the job comes into question. It's no coincidence that Julia Gillard had a "make over" of her image prior to the election and I'm quite sure had she not, she'd probably NOT be deputy PM now.

Yes, there are rules. In muslim society they appear to be fairly well known and pretty strictly adhered to in most cases because the consequences of breaking them are not particulary pretty in some places as far as I can see BUT this also holds true for women in Western society. The rules may not be written in the Koran, there may be a wider choice of "looks", they maybe different rules and perhaps the backlash for going against the unwritten rules isn't as obvious or the penalty as harsh but it's still there.

If you don't believe me, stick a hijaab on your head and go down to Bondi and do some topless sunbathing. I think the responses you'd get would be a VERY INTERESTING insight into the different kinds of attitudes to women and what they wear.

Just some observations I've made.
Oh come on. Nobody is arguing that there isn't huge societal pressure on people to dress a certain way. Of course. Your examples are valid. Even men do not have the freedom to wear dresses or to carry a purse. [And still, I would argue, that many, but not all, of these disapproving opinions are formed on the basis of religious ideas of what men and women should look like, should behave like, i.e. the way that the particular society's god created them.]

The difference is that doing these things in a secular society won't get you raped and killed. I think it is a huge difference.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:10 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 896,558 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Why do i get this impression that you still think Islam allows a husband to beat/whack his wife?
Because I've read its holy book/writings. That is surely the primary evidence of what a religion believes in, at least with regards to the three major monotheistic religions.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
The difference is that doing these things in a secular society won't get you raped and killed. I think it is a huge difference.
read some facts

NationMaster - Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:46 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,468,996 times
Reputation: 7280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
Oh come on. Nobody is arguing that there isn't huge societal pressure on people to dress a certain way. Of course. Your examples are valid. Even men do not have the freedom to wear dresses or to carry a purse. [And still, I would argue, that many, but not all, of these disapproving opinions are formed on the basis of religious ideas of what men and women should look like, should behave like, i.e. the way that the particular society's god created them.]

The difference is that doing these things in a secular society won't get you raped and killed. I think it is a huge difference.
Well I don't agree. I live in a secular society and women are raped and killed and beaten by their partners every day. What they're wearing is just another of the excuses used for the behaviour.
Perhaps it isn't happening because of what's written in a book but it still happening.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:52 AM
 
512 posts, read 633,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
Well I don't agree. I live in a secular society and women are raped and killed and beaten by their partners every day. What they're wearing is just another of the excuses used for the behaviour.
Perhaps it isn't happening because of what's written in a book but it still happening.
So it's ok to condone such behavior since its just going to happen anyway?
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:52 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,468,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
elwill, nothing personal, but I think it's probably safe to say that in a lot of Muslim countries rape would go unreported. It goes unreported in a lot of Western countries too. I'm not saying that is always the case but we can't pretend that there aren't some countries women wouldn't live if they came forward to report a rape.
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Old 01-27-2009, 09:54 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,468,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BornOKThe1stTime View Post
So it's ok to condone such behavior since its just going to happen anyway?
Who's condoning it? I'm simply pointing out that we can vilify Muslims for these behaviours but our own backyards aren't exactly pristine.
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,038,493 times
Reputation: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
elwill, nothing personal, but I think it's probably safe to say that in a lot of Muslim countries rape would go unreported. It goes unreported in a lot of Western countries too. I'm not saying that is always the case but we can't pretend that there aren't some countries women wouldn't live if they came forward to report a rape.
off course you are right , but what about the statistics of reported one ?

i will quote you somthing here told by woman be raped

Rape, the Most Intimate of Crimes
"Most women live in fear of incidents like this. We feel at risk because we are. We know the statistics. By some estimates one out of four women will be the victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. Each year women report almost half a million rapes and sexual assaults, according to the most recent U.S. Justice Department survey. In family-oriented Utah, a state perceived as a safe place, more than 4,000 rapes were reported last year. During one weekend alone, the Salt Lake City-based Utah Rape Recovery Center saw 29 victims."

if this is the statistics reports , so what about the actuals
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:33 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 12,468,996 times
Reputation: 7280
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
off course you are right , but what about the statistics of reported one ?

i will quote you somthing here told by woman be raped

Rape, the Most Intimate of Crimes
"Most women live in fear of incidents like this. We feel at risk because we are. We know the statistics. By some estimates one out of four women will be the victim of sexual assault in her lifetime. Each year women report almost half a million rapes and sexual assaults, according to the most recent U.S. Justice Department survey. In family-oriented Utah, a state perceived as a safe place, more than 4,000 rapes were reported last year. During one weekend alone, the Salt Lake City-based Utah Rape Recovery Center saw 29 victims."

if this is the statistics reports , so what about the actuals
The actuals are estimated at one in four. So in other words you know someone that has been raped most likely but also this

By most reports, three-fourths of rapes are committed by a man the woman knows -- a fact society is not willing to accept.

I think probably a good majority of those ^ rapes go unreported AND also think that it's unlikely that women are as fearful of rape in this situation. Women are fearful of being raped by a random stranger not by someone they know, it's how they end up being in the situation, they have some level of trust or familiarity with their attacker, it also makes it less likely that they'll report the incident.
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