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Old 01-29-2009, 10:28 AM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 134,573 times
Reputation: 36

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Excuse my tirade, but this post is Epic.

The truth is that Islamic fundamentalists are following strict laws that they believe to be 100% correct as to the necessary world-view of their very existence. God has given them a system by which to live, and a very detailed one at that. It is simply honest religious fundamentalism. Is it wrong? I say yes, there should be no Islam. I am necessarily, after much personal deliberation, a religious intolerant. I think, many many years in the future, an ideal society, in which the most possible happiness for everyone in the world, can be attained. I must believe it.

Utilitarianism, Humanitarianism, Secularism... Important ideals which we are seeing emerge more and more frequently, especially in America.

In an alternate evolution of history, the Western world could have not been much better. The Bible, taken literally [called fundamentalism], would have by now wrought a society seemingly more morally unjust and absurd.

We would no fleshy entertainment in the media...
1 Timothy 2:9
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shame-facedness and sobriety; not with broided [braided] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array."

We would have no women teachers...
1 Timothy 2:11-15
"A woman should learn [from men] in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

Women would be considered inferior to men...
1 Corinthians 11:3
"I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."
1 Corinthians 11:9
"For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Women could not speak in church, only at home...
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

And justifiable full submission and inferiority abound...
Quote:
Ephesians 5:22-24 (NIV)
"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."
1 Peter 3:1-2 (NAB)
"Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes."
A woman must sacrifice two turtle doves when she menstruates [Thanks, all-knowing Creator of the Universe!]...
Quote:
Leviticus 15:19-30 (NIV)
When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean. When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.
We would stone to death unbelievers, rapists, virgins who have sex while living with their parents, and those who work on Sunday [let's implement this one asap, huh?]...
Quote:
Mark 9:42
"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of the city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Exodus 31:14-15 (NLT)
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Exodus 35:2-3 (NLT)
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

We would have slavery abounding, your children inherit them and we could righteously beat them in accordance with the mandates of God!...
Quote:
Exodus 21:20-21
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NIV)
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Luke 12:42-48 (NASB) [Jesus recommends killing and flogging slaves.]
And the Lord [Jesus] said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants [slaves], to give them their rations at the proper time? "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."

Luke 16:13
"No servant [slave] can serve two masters." [Thanks, Jesus, son of God! What wisdom!]

Children who curse their parents? They die!
Leviticus 20:9
For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.

Adulterers? Kill 'em!
Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife — with the wife of his neighbor — both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Non-virgin Wife??? Kill her!
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.




How can someone take literally the moral aptitude of the ten commandments [from Exodus], when in the same book of the Bible, the same God advocates slave beating, death to those who work on Sundays, and in the very next book, demands animal sacrifice for menstruation, condones slavery and slavery inheritance, killing children who curse their parents, and killing people who cheat on their spouse.. I won't even bring up Deuteronomy...
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:37 AM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 134,573 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post

How can someone take literally the moral aptitude of the ten commandments [from Exodus], when in the same book of the Bible, the same God advocates slave beating, death to those who work on Sundays, and in the very next book, demands animal sacrifice for menstruation, condones slavery and slavery inheritance, killing children who curse their parents, and killing people who cheat on their spouse.. I won't even bring up Deuteronomy...

In the context of a silly book with silly laws that no contemporary Christian adheres to, why should the Ten Commandments be held discrete from the other text? It is as if on the next page, God himself did NOT condone the owning of another human being, who is born with the same capacity for understanding and appreciation of life as everyone else is. Ah, but the Creator does condone it, and makes specific rules about it. Jesus himself saw it fit.
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:14 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,064,081 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by MargoKey View Post
There are no justifiable reasons. I am not a child. I will not be disciplined by anyone.
if your are unconscious or to be unconscious you will thank the one who tapped you

please realize the main intention of it
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:06 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,869 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
if your are unconscious or to be unconscious you will thank the one who tapped you

please realize the main intention of it

Are you serious!!!!!! You will thank the one who tapped you?????

I tell you now I would be so grateful that he would be sitting in jail with a criminal record to his name.

What is the intention? To correct her? I can't believe that after all of this discussion you cannot see that such an idea is outrageous to the western world. There is nothing to realise here except the primitiveness of your ideas.

Some of the posts that I have seen on here have been real eye openers. The horrifying lives that women in these countries must be living is beyond my imagining. Something must be done to help these people see that there is a better way to live. No-one should live this way. I have always taken my freedom for granted and thought that men like the Cleric of my original post were just crackpots. I have seen on here that there are plenty of Muslims that don't completely agree with him but disturbingly they will not discount what he says entirely. There still seems to be this underlying attitude that women are to submit to their man and be grateful for his loving correction. I think that this attitude is what needs correcting.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:40 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,064,081 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Are you serious!!!!!! You will thank the one who tapped you?????

I tell you now I would be so grateful that he would be sitting in jail with a criminal record to his name.

What is the intention? To correct her? I can't believe that after all of this discussion you cannot see that such an idea is outrageous to the western world. There is nothing to realise here except the primitiveness of your ideas.

Some of the posts that I have seen on here have been real eye openers. The horrifying lives that women in these countries must be living is beyond my imagining. Something must be done to help these people see that there is a better way to live. No-one should live this way. I have always taken my freedom for granted and thought that men like the Cleric of my original post were just crackpots. I have seen on here that there are plenty of Muslims that don't completely agree with him but disturbingly they will not discount what he says entirely. There still seems to be this underlying attitude that women are to submit to their man and be grateful for his loving correction. I think that this attitude is what needs correcting.
may be i gave a wrong example

but what if you are about to have Nervous breakdown
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:09 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
397 posts, read 896,699 times
Reputation: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Are you serious!!!!!! You will thank the one who tapped you?????

I tell you now I would be so grateful that he would be sitting in jail with a criminal record to his name.

What is the intention? To correct her? I can't believe that after all of this discussion you cannot see that such an idea is outrageous to the western world. There is nothing to realise here except the primitiveness of your ideas.

Some of the posts that I have seen on here have been real eye openers. The horrifying lives that women in these countries must be living is beyond my imagining. Something must be done to help these people see that there is a better way to live. No-one should live this way. I have always taken my freedom for granted and thought that men like the Cleric of my original post were just crackpots. I have seen on here that there are plenty of Muslims that don't completely agree with him but disturbingly they will not discount what he says entirely. There still seems to be this underlying attitude that women are to submit to their man and be grateful for his loving correction. I think that this attitude is what needs correcting.
Hi Ice Lady:

Yes, I agree with you 100%. I have lived in an Islamic country for a short while, and it is unbelievable. For me, there are 2 main problems:

(1) More moderate Muslims do not condemn it enough, as you say. The reason is that their own holy books place them in a dilemma. They are always having to reconcile the writings in the Koran with modern enlightened ways (same as Christians have to do in some respects), and there is a natural reluctance to completely condemn this behavior. It is also NOT an easy thing to do. I am good friends with several secular Iranians and Arabs, who have great fear of speaking out, even in Western countries. Remember how apostacy is viewed.

(2) From the Western world, there is a lot of shallow "multicultural", "politically correct" sentiments. Many people confusingly blend criticisms against Islam as "Islamic racism." It is nothing of the sort. I, and I'm sure many others, have some wonderful friends from the Middle East. Race is not the issue - the issue is the practice of an intolerant religion that cannot coexist with others and that oppress women most terribly.

Again, I ask, where was the world's outcry when Rushdie, a brilliant writer, was so hatefully condemned by a fatwa for exercising his right to free speech and writing what he likes? Where was the outcry at Ayaan Hirsi Ali's treatment by the Muslim community in the Netherlands, forcing her to flee to the US? Why is it that followers of a particular religion are allowed to burn down buildings and have people killed because of certain cartoons made of their prophet? And then the Pope, the archbishop of Canterbury etc. says, no it is their own fault, because they committed blasphemy and "offended" Muslims?

No one of us has the right to not be offended. Many people offend me, but it does not give me license to trample on their rights to free speech, threaten them, intimidate them, and dispose of them.

It is time that people in secular countries wake up, appreciate the rights they have, and prepare to stand up for those rights. And we need to stop sacrificing women living in oppression at the altars of "not offending" and "multiculturalism."
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:19 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,869 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
may be i gave a wrong example

but what if you are about to have Nervous breakdown

If anybody is about to have a nervous breakdown then they need proper counselling and psychiatric care. They do not need to be "tapped" by their partner. What exactly do you mean by tapping anyway, what is your personal definition? There seem to be differing views on this point and I have asked you this question before but you did not reply.

Last edited by Lady Ice; 01-29-2009 at 03:23 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:29 PM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,440,869 times
Reputation: 10299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen_SDCA View Post
Hi Ice Lady:

Yes, I agree with you 100%. I have lived in an Islamic country for a short while, and it is unbelievable. For me, there are 2 main problems:

(1) More moderate Muslims do not condemn it enough, as you say. The reason is that their own holy books place them in a dilemma. They are always having to reconcile the writings in the Koran with modern enlightened ways (same as Christians have to do in some respects), and there is a natural reluctance to completely condemn this behavior. It is also NOT an easy thing to do. I am good friends with several secular Iranians and Arabs, who have great fear of speaking out, even in Western countries. Remember how apostacy is viewed.

(2) From the Western world, there is a lot of shallow "multicultural", "politically correct" sentiments. Many people confusingly blend criticisms against Islam as "Islamic racism." It is nothing of the sort. I, and I'm sure many others, have some wonderful friends from the Middle East. Race is not the issue - the issue is the practice of an intolerant religion that cannot coexist with others and that oppress women most terribly.

Again, I ask, where was the world's outcry when Rushdie, a brilliant writer, was so hatefully condemned by a fatwa for exercising his right to free speech and writing what he likes? Where was the outcry at Ayaan Hirsi Ali's treatment by the Muslim community in the Netherlands, forcing her to flee to the US? Why is it that followers of a particular religion are allowed to burn down buildings and have people killed because of certain cartoons made of their prophet? And then the Pope, the archbishop of Canterbury etc. says, no it is their own fault, because they committed blasphemy and "offended" Muslims?

No one of us has the right to not be offended. Many people offend me, but it does not give me license to trample on their rights to free speech, threaten them, intimidate them, and dispose of them.

It is time that people in secular countries wake up, appreciate the rights they have, and prepare to stand up for those rights. And we need to stop sacrificing women living in oppression at the altars of "not offending" and "multiculturalism."

You're right. I didn't want to offend anyone and I wanted to listen to all points of view before I drew any conclusions. I don't want to be ruled by the media or popular opinion, but some of these posts point to a problem that just can't be ignored or overlooked.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,874 posts, read 31,754,043 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
If anybody is about to have a nervous breakdown then they need proper counselling and psychiatric care. They do not need to be "tapped" by their partner. What exactly do you mean by tapping anyway, what is your personal definition? There seem to be differing views on this point and I have asked you this question before but you did not reply.
Tapping is just an attempt at rationalizing the original words in the Koran which were beat or scourge (whip) which Islamic countries still use as punishment to this day.
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:20 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,064,081 times
Reputation: 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
You're right. I didn't want to offend anyone and I wanted to listen to all points of view before I drew any conclusions. I don't want to be ruled by the media or popular opinion, but some of these posts point to a problem that just can't be ignored or overlooked.
thank you

you are fair
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