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Old 01-22-2009, 08:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Lady Ice wrote:

I know that in America there have been incidents in which religious parents refused medical treatment for their children who were ill and desparately needed it and died when they didn't get it. The parents were charged with crimes which they should be. Whenever someone who is an innocent vicitim of a misguided religious belief suffers as a result of it that the laws of the nation they're in will prevail. This has happened a number of times in America and I'm certain it must be happening in other nations as well. We have very clear laws regarding domestic violence as I'm sure Australia does as well and no one is except from them due to their religious affiliations.

Yes agreed but should the Cleric be punished for inciting this behaviour in the first place? Something along the lines of the hate crimes of another thread where Christian groups were being accused of inciting discrimination against gays.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)," (4:34)."
So where does it say raping your wife is ok?

And be all that as it may, in this country we do not live under the laws of Allah, we live under Australian Law, where women are not chattles and domestic violence and rape are both against the law. SO if you are a Muslim that wishes to strictly adhere literally to this passage from the Koran, then I would suggest this is not the place for you.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
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Lady Ice wrote:
Quote:
Yes agreed but should the Cleric be punished for inciting this behaviour in the first place? Something along the lines of the hate crimes of another thread where Christian groups were being accused of inciting discrimination against gays.
That's a much more difficult situation because we're getting into the restriction of free speech. We allow racist groups to publicly declare their hateful rhetoric because it's protected by our constitution and because the Cleric hasn't actually committed an offence himself I think it would be hard to stop it. I think the only means we have available is to present strong condemnations by others with opposing views in order to try to counter the influence of the Cleric.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:16 AM
 
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I like this " beat them lightly" idea. As if it is OK to hit her if you don't go nuts about it. Apparently if you don't leave a bruise or make her bleed then it's OK.

I know there are plenty of ways you can be hit that don't leave a bruise but are unimaginable pain.

I still want to know what any muslims think about this.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
Absolutely agree with you Moonshadow. We see these stories on extreme Muslim behaviour crop up time and again in the media. The only reason that these people get away with saying such things is because they have chosen to live in a free country and there is no real consequence for them speaking their mind.

What I would really like to know though is this. Is it a common belief in the Muslim community and just not talked about that much or is it as extreme as I would really like to believe? Perhaps a Muslim could enlighten me.
Any "evidence" that this is adhered to that I could add is strictly anecdotal but I have known and spoken to several Muslim women and I don't get the impression that this is something that they would consider normal behaviour. Of course I'm sure there are many others that we will never hear from.
Unfortunately we don't get to hear from too many moderate Muslims, although I do recall when Sheikh Hilali was ranting on about those heinous rapes commited in Sydney a few years back, there was a young Muslim man who spoke out on the ABC to counter balance much of the furore. I found him to be incredibly articulate and very intelligent and my impressions of him from the interview were very positive. I'll see if I can hunt up his name because he really was very impressive (even to an athiest ) but I'm not doing it now Lady Ice, as it's after 2am and I am about to turn into a pumpkin. I'll have a hunt in the morning.
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Old 01-22-2009, 08:28 AM
 
4,253 posts, read 5,441,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonshadow View Post
Any "evidence" that this is adhered to that I could add is strictly anecdotal but I have known and spoken to several Muslim women and I don't get the impression that this is something that they would consider normal behaviour. Of course I'm sure there are many others that we will never hear from.
Unfortunately we don't get to hear from too many moderate Muslims, although I do recall when Sheikh Hilali was ranting on about those heinous rapes commited in Sydney a few years back, there was a young Muslim man who spoke out on the ABC to counter balance much of the furore. I found him to be incredibly articulate and very intelligent and my impressions of him from the interview were very positive. I'll see if I can hunt up his name because he really was very impressive (even to an athiest ) but I'm not doing it now Lady Ice, as it's after 2am and I am about to turn into a pumpkin. I'll have a hunt in the morning.
I remember the incident you are talking about and yes, I'm off to bed too.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:48 AM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,064,274 times
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1 – The Qur’aan enjoins good treatment of one's wife: she is to be honoured and treated kindly, even when one no longer feels love in one's heart towards her.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“and live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allaah brings through it a great deal of good”
[al-Nisa’ 4:19]
2 – The Qur’aan explains that women have rights over their husbands, just as their husbands have rights over them.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise”
[al-Baqarah 2:228]

This verse indicates that the man has additional rights, commensurate with his role as protector and maintainer and his responsibility of spending (on his wife) etc.

3 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined kind treatment and honouring of one’s wife, and he described the best of people as those who are best to their wives. He said:

“The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives.”


4 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) spoke beautiful word concerning kind treatment of one’s wife, stating that when the husband feeds his wife and puts a morsel of food in her mouth, he earns the reward of doing an act of charity. He said,

“You never spend anything but you will be rewarded for it, even the morsel of food that you lift to your wife’s mouth.”


4 – And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Fear Allaah with regard to women, for you have taken them as a trust from Allaah and intimacy with them has become permissible to you by the words of Allaah. Your right over them is that they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike; if they do that then hit them but not in a harsh manner. And their right over you is that you should provide for them and clothe them on a reasonable basis.”


What is meant by “they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike” is that they should not allow anyone whom you dislike to enter your houses, whether the person disliked is a man or a woman, or any of the woman’s mahrams [close relatives to whom marriage is forbidden]. The prohibition includes all of them.

The hadeeth may be understood as meaning that a man has the right to hit his wife, in a manner that is not harsh and does not cause injury if if there is a reason for that, such as her going against his wishes or disobeying him.

This is like the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“As to those women on whose part you see ill‑conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great”
[al-Nisa’ 4:34]

If a woman rebels against her husband and disobeys his commands, then he should follow this method of admonishing her, forsaking her in bed and hitting her. Hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury.

this means that it should not cause pain.
a light tap that leaves no mark or
a light touch by toothbrush.
the face must be avoided.


The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.
And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:57 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 4,090,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
1 – The Qur’aan enjoins good treatment of one's wife: she is to be honoured and treated kindly, even when one no longer feels love in one's heart towards her.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“and live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allaah brings through it a great deal of good”
[al-Nisa’ 4:19]
2 – The Qur’aan explains that women have rights over their husbands, just as their husbands have rights over them.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise”
[al-Baqarah 2:228]

This verse indicates that the man has additional rights, commensurate with his role as protector and maintainer and his responsibility of spending (on his wife) etc.

3 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) enjoined kind treatment and honouring of one’s wife, and he described the best of people as those who are best to their wives. He said:

“The best of you are those who are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you to my wives.”


4 – The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) spoke beautiful word concerning kind treatment of one’s wife, stating that when the husband feeds his wife and puts a morsel of food in her mouth, he earns the reward of doing an act of charity. He said,

“You never spend anything but you will be rewarded for it, even the morsel of food that you lift to your wife’s mouth.”


4 – And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Fear Allaah with regard to women, for you have taken them as a trust from Allaah and intimacy with them has become permissible to you by the words of Allaah. Your right over them is that they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike; if they do that then hit them but not in a harsh manner. And their right over you is that you should provide for them and clothe them on a reasonable basis.”


What is meant by “they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike” is that they should not allow anyone whom you dislike to enter your houses, whether the person disliked is a man or a woman, or any of the woman’s mahrams [close relatives to whom marriage is forbidden]. The prohibition includes all of them.

The hadeeth may be understood as meaning that a man has the right to hit his wife, in a manner that is not harsh and does not cause injury if if there is a reason for that, such as her going against his wishes or disobeying him.

This is like the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“As to those women on whose part you see ill‑conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allaah is Ever Most High, Most Great”
[al-Nisa’ 4:34]

If a woman rebels against her husband and disobeys his commands, then he should follow this method of admonishing her, forsaking her in bed and hitting her. Hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury.

this means that it should not cause pain.
a light tap that leaves no mark or
a light touch by toothbrush.
the face must be avoided.


The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.
And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

so muslim men shouldn't "beat" their wives, as the koran says? Just answer the question, please.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:15 AM
 
5,006 posts, read 13,855,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Ice View Post
This story has been on the news here in Australia tonight. I find this absolutely outrageous.....

Telstra BigPond News and Weather (http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2009/01/22/PM_demands_apology_from_Muslim_cleric_297055.html - broken link)


Basically it says that a Muslim cleric has been telling his followers that it is perfectly acceptable to hit your wife if she is disobedient. He also states that there is no such thing as rape in marriage, that the man has the right to demand sex whenever he wishes.Even against her will.

I would like to know if this is extreme or common practice within the Muslim community. Is this something that a large number of Muslim men agree with?

Are stories like this planted in the media to whip up controversy? Is there a hidden agenda to incite hatred of Muslims throughout the Western world by focusing on extremist comments like this?

I know that that is a lot of questions but they all came to my mind while watching and reading this story.

Sounds like Christianity to me.

take a look at the Christian Bible:

http://www.cybercollege.com/antiwoman.htm

If you see a pretty woman among your captives and would like her for a wife, then bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can simply "let her go." (Deuteronomy)

If you see a pretty woman among your captives and would like her for a wife, then bring her home and "go in unto her." Later, if you decide you don't like her, you can simply "let her go." (Deuteronomy)

Paul points out in New Testament Romans that "the natural use" of women is to provide men with sex. (Romans)

A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's wife: "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine (wife); let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The women were subsequently ravished and killed. (JG)

In Exod. we see that it is permissible to sell one's daughter (but apparently not one's son) into slavery.

Now tell me how the Bible is better than the Koran?
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie Jo View Post
Sounds like Christianity to me.
Nice attempt at a cheap shot. But I'm not aware of anywhere in the Bible where beating or raping of a one's wife is encouraged or allowed.
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