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Old 02-16-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Yes we've all been over this before and he's trying to argue for the good old

"Abrogation & Cancellation"

Anything they do not like can be cancelled or rubbed out by their clergy and newer doctrine invented to fit the circumstances. In the end, it leaves any foundation for intelligent discussion useless.
In the Book of Revelation 1, verse 8, it is implied that Jesus said the following about himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” These are the attributes of God. Consequently, Jesus, according to early Christians, is here claiming divinity. However, the above-mentioned wording is according to the King James Version. In the Revised Standard Version, biblical scholars corrected the translation and wrote: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” A correction was also made in the New American Bible produced by Catholics. The translation of that verse has been amended to put it in its correct context as follows: “The Lord God says: ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’ ” With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:23 PM
 
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You realize that "Alpha and Omega" means "Beginning and the End", right?

God refers to himself as such. Nice attempt at spin, though.
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Old 02-16-2009, 01:11 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,069,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
You realize that "Alpha and Omega" means "Beginning and the End", right?

God refers to himself as such. Nice attempt at spin, though.

this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus
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Old 02-16-2009, 01:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus

57:3 He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent: and He has full knowledge of all things.
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Old 02-16-2009, 01:40 PM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,903,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
In the Book of Revelation 1, verse 8, it is implied that Jesus said the following about himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” These are the attributes of God. Consequently, Jesus, according to early Christians, is here claiming divinity. However, the above-mentioned wording is according to the King James Version. In the Revised Standard Version, biblical scholars corrected the translation and wrote: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” A correction was also made in the New American Bible produced by Catholics. The translation of that verse has been amended to put it in its correct context as follows: “The Lord God says: ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’ ” With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus
The oldest manuscripts found to date are 1500 years older than when the Quran was written. These manuscripts can be viewed in several well known libraries and museums today. Any and all verifications for the Bible's authenticity can and has been done through them. The only differences ever found were merely small grammatical and nothing of major doctrinal belief.

Now having said this, there were indeed diliberate attempts to change the Bible in the middle ages when newer translations were being created for later language groups. The attempts at falsifying specific passages for the purpose of promoting the Trinity were one. It was Sir Isaac Newton and his later published book "Two Notable Corruptions of Scripture" (which dealt with the spurious scriptures of 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16). Then there was William Whiston who translated the works of the Jewish Historian Josephus, who also noted the corruptions by comparing the oldest manuscripts available to him. The other major thing that the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy of Christendom did was remove the divine name of God from all Biblical passages. We can go round and round on this, but I've pointed it out here numerous times that these oldest available manuscripts contain the name Jehovah/or Yahweh over 7000 times in the original Holy Scriptures. These manuscripts are fortunately locked away in these same libraries or they'd be destroyed by those with outside motives.

The reason for the O.P.'s criticism of this name at the beginning of this thread is because in the Holy Scriptures of Deuteronomy 34:10 - "Young's Literal Translation", reads this way:
Quote:
"And there hath not arisen a prophet any more in Israel like Moses, whom Jehovah hath known face to face."
Islam has no answer for why Muhammad never spoke to Jehovah or ever used Jehovah's name in the Quran. One thing for sure, whatever god it was, it was'nt Israel's God Jehovah. Jesus however did use Jehovah's name. In fact the first references to him doing so were in answer to Satan's challeges in the wilderness where it is recorded where Jesus quoted the three Scriptural texts from the Hebrew Scriptures containing the divine name. These fotunately are also under lock and key in those same libraries and museums and photo copies can be obtained for use by scholars to this very day. But again, Islam has no answer for this, hence the Bible bashing when things don't shed favorable light their way.

But Islam is uniquely profound in it's pioneering use of the "Abrogation and Cancellation" doctrine. Volumes of criticism against Muhammad for his lack of any miracles for which his being Prophet would have been established without question. Moses God Jehovah actually instructed Moses on the performing of miracles as proof of his prophetship before the sons of Israel. Jesus likewise did just as Moses in the performance of miracles as proof of his prophetship. Yet it is to this day multiples criticism against Muhammad are recorded inside the Quran for his lack of miracles. Repeated it is also recorded in the Quran , Muhammad's own words related that no miracles were necessary to prove the Quran as coming from almighty God. Yet a couple centuries later the Islamic Religious Clergy invented the Hadiths with so-called recorded miracles performed by Muhammad to quell and silence the protests of Islam's critics. Even still, these so-called recorded miracles are to this day in conflict with Muhammads own words in the Quran that miracles are and were never needed by him to prove his being sent by God.

Then there is the matter of the controversial "Satanic Verses" for which Salman Rushdie exposed as being and in actual fact were a part of the original Quran, but later Abrogated & errased in later Qurans. These verses spoke about Muhammad's acceptance of three pagan Goddesses of his home people who refused to put faith in him. He told them these Goddesses were Allah's daughters and were acceptable to him. This pleased the people and they then and only then accepted Muhammad. Every Imam, Mullah, Ayatollah, etc , all know that those original verses were they and it was issued a Fatwah against Mr Rushdie for shedding light on the origin of such. Personally i could care less, but if they were a part of the history, then why the cover up with "Abrogation and Cancellation" doctrine.

Again, any attempt at meaningful dialog and discussion is useless with this constant refusal to admit past history and replacing it with newer scripture because some clergy believe God made a mistake. To be honest. It goes both ways for both religions.
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Old 02-16-2009, 02:55 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,069,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Then there is the matter of the controversial "Satanic Verses" for which Salman Rushdie exposed as being and in actual fact were a part of the original Quran, but later Abrogated & errased in later Qurans. These verses spoke about Muhammad's acceptance of three pagan Goddesses of his home people who refused to put faith in him. He told them these Goddesses were Allah's daughters and were acceptable to him. This pleased the people and they then and only then accepted Muhammad. Every Imam, Mullah, Ayatollah, etc , all know that those original verses were they and it was issued a Fatwah against Mr Rushdie for shedding light on the origin of such. Personally i could care less, but if they were a part of the history, then why the cover up with "Abrogation and Cancellation" doctrine.

Again, any attempt at meaningful dialog and discussion is useless with this constant refusal to admit past history and replacing it with newer scripture because some clergy believe God made a mistake. To be honest. It goes both ways for both religions.

you mean this

"These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for."



Here is background story for that fake statement
The prophet was reading verses from the quran and the pagans were behind him
The verses were very strong to the pagans in way that at the end of the verses the prophet prostrate to Allah and the pagans also prostrate behind them
Then that fake statement started
As an excuse for the prostration of the pagans




The verses are in sure #53 and they are 62 verses and the miracle thing that those verses has a proof from God that the prophet was not deceived


Here some of the verses and the proof in verse 2

1 By the Star when it setteth,
2 Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;
3 Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire.
4 It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired,

...
..
.
56 This is a warner of the warners of old.
57 The threatened Hour is nigh.
58 None beside Allah can disclose it.
59 Marvel ye then at this statement,
60 And laugh and not weep,
61 While ye amuse yourselves?
62 Rather prostrate yourselves before Allah and serve Him.


and elwill wrote

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
can't you check the entire verses before coming with such proclaims , your site didn't complete the verses , it was enough to mention just one addition verse to refute these vain !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , but he didn't to deceivee you

53-19 Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza,
53-20 And another, the third (goddess), Manat?
53-21 What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female?
53-22Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair!
53-23 These are nothing but names which ye (pagans) have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They(pagans) follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! . (refer to quran)

allah make logical argument with pagans and thier beliefs , mekkans were worships those idoles as to be daugters of creator (uzz , manat , lat) , this was the religion of pagans pre_islam



You need to think seriously

the most important thing in Christianity and that is Jesus
the Christians are not sure about his definition

is he god , son of god or all

thats proof that the current bible is not as it should be

and here are more proofs


YouTube - Is The Bible Corrupted?


the Quran is the last holy book from God after the Book of jesus


so the logic thing is you should update your self to the last book of God and you will not loose jesus

jesus is not God he ate food

CHRIST THE SON OF MARY WAS NO MORE THAN A MESSENGER;
MANY WERE THE MESSENGERS THAT PASSED AWAY BEFORE HIM.
HIS MOTHER WAS A SAINTLY WOMAN.
THEY BOTH ATE EARTHLY FOOD.
SEE! HOW CLEAR WE MAKE FOR THEM OUR MESSAGES.
YET SEE! HOW THEY ARE DELUDED AWAY FROM THE TRUTH, Holy Qur'an 5:78



God is telling you that Jesus ate food
The one who eats, must have the call of nature - the toilet or the bush

do you accept that for God.
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Old 02-16-2009, 03:51 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,882,289 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
In the Book of Revelation 1, verse 8, it is implied that Jesus said the following about himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” These are the attributes of God. Consequently, Jesus, according to early Christians, is here claiming divinity. However, the above-mentioned wording is according to the King James Version. In the Revised Standard Version, biblical scholars corrected the translation and wrote: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” A correction was also made in the New American Bible produced by Catholics. The translation of that verse has been amended to put it in its correct context as follows: “The Lord God says: ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.’ ” With these corrections, it becomes evident that this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus
When you copy and paste, aren't you suppose to say from which website?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus
Again, moonsun, you are incorrect. This was Jesus speaking. Read the whole chapter. Was God the Father ever dead? No. But God the Son, Jesus, was (verse 18). Another proof that the Quran is wrong about Jesus dying on the cross, as well.
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Old 02-16-2009, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,882,289 times
Reputation: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
You need to think seriously
the most important thing in Christianity and that is Jesus
the Christians are not sure about his definition
is he god , son of god or all
thats proof that the current bible is not as it should be
and here are more proofs

YouTube - Is The Bible Corrupted?

Just because some people are confused about Jesus, is not any proof that the bible is wrong. The people are. Jesus is God the Son.


the Quran is the last holy book from God after the Book of jesus

so the logic thing is you should update your self to the last book of God and you will not loose jesus

The Bible is the final Word of God.



jesus is not God he ate food

CHRIST THE SON OF MARY WAS NO MORE THAN A MESSENGER;
MANY WERE THE MESSENGERS THAT PASSED AWAY BEFORE HIM.
HIS MOTHER WAS A SAINTLY WOMAN.
THEY BOTH ATE EARTHLY FOOD.
SEE! HOW CLEAR WE MAKE FOR THEM OUR MESSAGES.
YET SEE! HOW THEY ARE DELUDED AWAY FROM THE TRUTH, Holy Qur'an 5:78
God is telling you that Jesus ate food
The one who eats, must have the call of nature - the toilet or the bush
do you accept that for God.

Jesus is the Savior, the Messiah.

Jesus ate food while He was in the flesh, so yes, He had the call of nature.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:58 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,069,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
When you copy and paste, aren't you suppose to say from which website?


.

may allah reward those who show me my mistakes



Muslim Online - Islamic Forum, Arcade, Friends > DID CHRIST CLAIM DIVINITY
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Old 02-16-2009, 10:24 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,506,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
When you copy and paste, aren't you suppose to say from which website?



Again, moonsun, you are incorrect. This was Jesus speaking. Read the whole chapter. Was God the Father ever dead? No. But God the Son, Jesus, was (verse 18). Another proof that the Quran is wrong about Jesus dying on the cross, as well.
I agree, Jesus was the one that was dead and risen, not the Father, but I quess that part of taken out of the quran, and things about Jesus being God.
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