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Old 02-23-2009, 12:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
And the fact that this professional man killed his "classy" wife doesn't do much to change the opinion the stereotype.
So which race or religion doesn't have its stereotypes then....
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Why must a woman be literally half-naked before she can be considered to be 'free' whereas if she is covered in say a headscarf, she is considered 'oppressed'?
I don't think people view a head scarf as oppression, or wearing modest clothing. When people think female oppression in relation to muslim garb it is the burqa which covers everything, leaving the woman only a small field of vision. I saw in picture in the paper a week or two ago about flooding in Afghanistan...they showed people desperately forging a river and the women were dressed in burqas! How many of them died, I wonder?
That is one of the many reasons why the burqa is seen as oppressive ...not modest dress and hijab.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
I think I confused you with another who comes onto the Christian side, and finds every reason to berate us. I sincerely apologize.

I totally agree with you on what you just said.
Good deal, we'll just forget it happened and start over.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post
That is one of the many reasons why the burqa is seen as oppressive ...not modest dress and hijab.
Again...how many other muslim societies that you know practice wearing the burqa? The burqa is a uniquely Afghan thing
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:11 PM
 
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Would you consider a society where the women are pressured to constantly try to look young, be it via exercise or operations etc to be oppressive?
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Would you consider a society where the women are pressured to constantly try to look young, be it via exercise or operations etc to be oppressive?
Shallow perhaps, but not oppressive. Personally, I've never felt any pressure to do that, and anyone who does is just insecure.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
Unfortunately some here don't make the distinction. And it is an important distinction.



Look, if you are saying Islam allows honor killings, I would have to disagree. If you say that Islam justifies honor killings, I disagree. If you are saying that honor killings happen because of the presence of religion or because of the presence of strict rules of society, I would agree with you. In that particular area of the world, the religion is mostly Islam. The problem with this discussion is that we are having it on a clearly biased thread. If the thread was titled, "Honor killings are not allowed in Islam, so why do so many women fall victim to honor killing by their Muslim relatives?" you might find more muslims willing to discuss the issue in an impartial way. But no, we are having this discussion on a thread about a man who killed his wife, not because of "honor" but because he apparently was pissed off that she would divorce him, which in and of itself is not uncommon here in the US. (Think of how many women are victimized by their husbands here, from emotional to physical abuse to murder). Then you get someone coming on and saying that even moderate muslims are increasing their nut job actions and another saying that any muslim at any time may slit your throat. What kind of reaction and discussion do you expect to occur after that??? I mean really.

There is no good or justifiable explanation for why honor killings are occurring in Islamic countries. To understand them at all we would have to look at why honor killings occur in the first place. The problem seems to be this, the more religious the people are, the more they expect each other to follow the "rules". (If not religious rules than general rules of a society) There are very rigid values and standards that everyone is expected to adhere to. When someone doesn't, it causes embarrassment and humiliation to the family. Some muslims (yes other religious groups as well), in some areas, seem to think that the only solution is to kill the girl, for example, to save the family honor. Because how your children behave reflects how well you have taught them the rules of society. If they go against the rules, you obviously weren't a good teacher. If one of your daughters isn't following the rules and you are not a good teacher, then your other daughters are probably no good either. So no one will allow their sons to marry your daughter. It's a vicious cycle, and though there is no base in Islam for honor killings, there is no doubt that the girl was killed because her family was very religious, or because there were standards that that particular society adheres to, no matter what the religion. Is it right? Certainly not. Is it Islamic? Certainly not.

The only thing I can compare it to is how some women were treated say, 100 years ago with regards to pregnancy before marriage. I can tell you that my Great Grandmother lived in Vermont got pregnant by a Canadian soldier. She was completely ostracized by her wealthy family (don't know if it was because they were "religious" but they probably were Protestant). She was thrown out of the family house at the age of 19, went on to leave the state, struggle to live by herself as a single mother with no family support, then died of TB (interestingly enough, while pregnant again) on Christmas Eve when my grandfather was only 5.

So we can say that she basically died because she did not follow the rules of her society (or religion, if that is what prompted her parents to throw her out).

Obviously honor killings in the Middle East are more vicious, as they are killing the girls and women not just throwing them out of the house.

Do we have this problem in this country now? It doesn't seem so. Even the Vice President who is religious and believes in abstinence can have a knocked up teenager and no one bats an eyelash. The stakes are just not as high for us and frankly no one seems to care anymore.

What is the solution? I don't know. Advancement of society? A deterioration of religion? Certainly if people weren't so religious in Muslim countries (And we could insert any religion here, if there in fact even existed any really religious countries anymore), it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But this takes time. And these countries who are so religious look at us in the US and freak out, because the way they see it we have totally lost our religion and our values.

If we took religion out of the equation, as in a secular society, there would still be values of the society to abide by, I guess we would call those laws. Laws like we have here. You do this action, which society has decided to outlaw, you suffer this penalty. Jail, probation, death penalty, whatever it may be. There are still rules about how people have to behave and consequences to breaking the rules.

these countries that are turning a blind eye to honor killings are basically allowing vigilante "justice" which is really not justice at all but murder. And they are not doing enough to prevent it, that is certain, because the practice continues. But I am just not sure how it can be prevented, I'd say education, but I don't know what the stats are on people who commit honor killings are. I would guess that some of them are in fact well educated people, but most are not. That is pure speculation on my part. I would also guess that this happens more in smaller communities than large but again, not only in small communities but also large. So what to do? I am just not sure.

The problem with discussing it here, camping, is that while you seem to be entirely rational, and ask legitimate questions and want a dialogue, there are others here who just want to inflame people against an entire group of people, a large (and increasing percentage) of which have nothing to do with honor killing. With people like that posting, it really detracts from meaningful discussion.




I have addressed the issue above. I think that many would agree with me. The problem is what to do. How to solve the problem of "family honor" while people maintain their religion. Is it education? Secular government? Stricter laws for family members committing heinous crimes? All of the above? Should we, the US make more programs for women in danger to flee here, make it easier to seek political asylum because of this? Perhaps. I did meet a girl from Jordan who did come here to escape something she was going through over there, she never did say what, but somehow she managed to get over here. So, should we be advocating getting these women over here in the meantime, till their countries address the issue? I don't know.

It does make me glad I live in the USA. Because one thing is for sure, Muslim girls really don't have to worry about being killed by their family for the most part (and yes I have heard about the two girls in Texas but that is not the norm for Muslim girls in this country)

My daughter will have the freedom to practice her religion (or not) without fear of anyone killing her. (and if she is negatively impacted by her religion it will be more likely by someone prejudiced against muslims not another muslim) We are completely lacking that "oh my god what will the neighbors think, now who will marry your sister?" mentality. If anyone doesn't like our daughter's behavior, well, they don't have to marry her then. She'll find someone else.

Sorry so long but anyone who really wants to participate in this discussion probably won't mind.
Thank you for the considered response. I've been thinking about what you wrote, and I still have a few questions, if you don't mind...
You wrote of the differences of culture and religion, yet the two are so entwined as to be one is certain areas of the world. Areas that tend to be fundamental islamic in practice and in politics.
Here is my question --
If countries that proclaim themselves to be Islamic and living under sharia, then how do they justify honor killings, child brides and gay executions? Wouldn't those things go in direct defiance of Islam? Yet, these people from the taliban to the Saudis to the ayatollah believe that they are following Islam. How do they square it?
Also, in Catholicism the Pope is considered the leader of all catholics throughout the world. The eastern orthodox church also has a pope with a similiar role. Both popes can and do excommunicate priests that go against papal dictates. Does Islam have anything similiar? A leading group of imams that make Quronic decisions?
And lastly, it is true that what happens in Syria, Jordan, or Pakistan will continue to happen -- the US (or any other western nation) does not and should not have say over the going ons of the region. But other more progressive muslim countries can and do -- do you see them adding their weight to stop such things? Or Al Jezeera running specials on why honor killings need to be abolished?
Oh - and with increased immigration from lands where honor killings et al are deeply embedded into the culture, how would you as a muslim woman keep such practices out of the US? How would American muslims teach immigrants and even more importantly immigrant children that such subjegation has no place here?*


*and by subjegation, I am not talking about wearing the hijab -- I am talking about forced marriages/beatings/killings.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:25 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,311,028 times
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Again...how many other muslim societies that you know practice wearing the burqa? The burqa is a uniquely Afghan thing
Well, in Saudi Arabia a cleric wanted women to be swathed from head to toe with only ONE eye uncovered! That is pretty damn harsh, braderjoe.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:35 PM
 
8,180 posts, read 11,311,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
oh i'm sorry , i didn't notice that

anyway , i just hope from you or any christian to not feel offness form my words

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they made a wrong decesion in this situation , i didn't deny that , but it's not honour killing it was fire accedent in the school , and it was very stupid from ignorant men to prohibit some of them from going out because of such silly reason as not covering thier head , i confess

i see it as stupidity but not kill crime with full intensions from police men , there were 800 of students in that place and offcource there were thousands of police and firemen , and it was just eyewitnesses whom saw that happened to some of girles , but it wasn't the direct reason for the death of student happened in this accedent

do you understand what i mean ?

[/color]

these things dosn't happen in majority of islamic countries
i didn't need to explain anything
i just explain what i believe it's the right path of islam from islamic sources .
i disagree with some of the laws in my country which isn't islamic ,
and my country is muslim country but it dosn't mean that it process shariah laws

i consider my self in your side regadring to this issue , but i disagree with attach such crimes to islamic teaching , that's all



Well, as a muslim man from a more moderate country - Egypt I think? What would you suggest would stop these men from committing horrible crimes in the name of Islam? Yes, I cannot find specific imams who think honor killings are OK -- yet they must exist, or honor killings would not be allowed to happen in Muslim countries. Or if they did, the killers would be arrested and serve real time in prison, not a few months.


As to the Saudi incident....you know, I really don't know what you are getting at. Are you saying that the eyewitnesses were wrong? From what I had read - from several different sources - the firemen were rescuing the girls, and as you said around 800 got out alive. The problem arose when the morals and vice police showed up. They were the ones that forbad the firemen from rescuing the girls because they were not in hijab. They were the ones that made that call and they did it with religious authority, authority backed by the king.

I know you are not a Saudi, and I am not trying to hold you responsible for their actions but I am honestly trying to understand how such distortations of the Quron can be allowed to happen with impugnity.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by camping! View Post
I know you are not a Saudi, and I am not trying to hold you responsible for their actions but I am honestly trying to understand how such distortations of the Quron can be allowed to happen with impugnity.
Same way distortions in any other religion are allowed to happen.
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