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Old 02-24-2009, 10:34 PM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Christianity is the largest religion, with a following of about 33% of all people. Islam is second, with 21%.
you need to upgrade your informations

Vatican: Islam Surpasses Roman Catholicism As World's Largest Religion

ABC News: Muslims More Numerous Than Catholics
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:52 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,575,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
My friend wore a burka....I know what one is. She brought it home with her.
It's not a burka.....It's an abbaya, and a niqab (face cover) if she chooses to wear it, and in Saudi the face cover is not required, though it may be common.

You might think they are one and the same but they are not.

AGAIN, MrsMtns, do you have any IDEA what the men over there wear?

Did your "friend" show you her husband's wardrobe that he wore while over there?

Just curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anifani821 View Post
The point is . . . HONOR KILLING.

People kill each other every day. Yes. True. Heinous, no matter how they do it. But they do it b/c they are mentally ill or calculating psychopaths who want to murder their spouse so they don't have to live with them.

They do not do it as an HONOR KILLING.

Just like - we don't throw acid on women and then no one does anything about it. Yet, that happens in other societies - and no one does a damn thing.

Hey - if this doesn't bother you all - I guess it just doesn't bother you. To have people come to this country - and still cling to cultural practices that are definitely NOT acceptable here - that bothers me. This guy was sending out a message to the world - that here in America, Muslims can behead their wives and hey - no one says a thing - cause - "dead is just dead."
I don't believe this was an honor killing. It seems more like retribution to me.

And who is not saying anything here? He's been arrested and will be tried for his crime.

I don't think there will be a rash of Muslim men in America slitting their wives throats just because this guy did it.

Yes, honor killings currently take place and yes, men are getting away with murder. Of course it isn't right. We get your point.

But again, I think this is a case of an abusive, jealous, murderous husband. I just don't think it was an honor killing. I'll have you know I know A LOT of divorced Muslims and none of them have beheaded their ex's.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,257,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
It's not a burka.....It's an abbaya, and a niqab (face cover) if she chooses to wear it, and in Saudi the face cover is not required, though it may be common.

You might think they are one and the same but they are not.

AGAIN, MrsMtns, do you have any IDEA what the men over there wear?

Did your "friend" show you her husband's wardrobe that he wore while over there?

Just curious.



I don't believe this was an honor killing. It seems more like retribution to me.

And who is not saying anything here? He's been arrested and will be tried for his crime.

I don't think there will be a rash of Muslim men in America slitting their wives throats just because this guy did it.

Yes, honor killings currently take place and yes, men are getting away with murder. Of course it isn't right. We get your point.

But again, I think this is a case of an abusive, jealous, murderous husband. I just don't think it was an honor killing. I'll have you know I know A LOT of divorced Muslims and none of them have beheaded their ex's.
She wore a burqa. Here is a picture of it, only hers was black. Her husband wore dress pants and a dress shirt. She had to wear the burqa in public and was hit on the ankle on time (with what looked like a switch/pole) by a religious policeman because she was not wearing it properly. Something was showing.

Well, you can believe what you want. Society, including Muslim clerics in the US are calling it an honour killing.
Attached Thumbnails
Moderate Muslim' murders wife Islam-style-burqa.jpg  
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,575,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Thank you for the considered response. I've been thinking about what you wrote, and I still have a few questions, if you don't mind...
You wrote of the differences of culture and religion, yet the two are so entwined as to be one is certain areas of the world. Areas that tend to be fundamental islamic in practice and in politics.
Here is my question --
If countries that proclaim themselves to be Islamic and living under sharia, then how do they justify honor killings, child brides and gay executions?
I am not aware of any Islamic country that justifies honor killings. They may have laws against them that are a slap on the wrist for committing them, but I don't know of any that actually justify and allow honor killings. I think what they do justify is the notion that the perpetrator of these acts was so crazed at the time that he could not help himself because he was irrational. So, even if it's a crime by law, it's more viewed as a type of temporary insanity and thus gets a slap on the wrist.

Regarding child brides, according to the religion, I think that girls are able to marry when they start their menstrual cycle, though many muslim countries have laws to prevent girls from marrying until a certain age. The youngest I saw according to Wikipedia was 14, most muslim countries were at least 16, or 17 or 18 (and there apparently are several states in the US that allow a girl to marry at 15 w/parental consent, btw). The most interesting in the list was Kuwait which had no minimum age by law but apparently a marriage cannot be "registered" until the girl is 15 and the boy 17. The thought of a 14 year old being married to a 60 year old with two other wives is disturbing to me, to say the least. As far as I understand it Islamically a woman has the right to agree or disagree on a marriage but forcing a young girl into marriage is something that does occur, partly because yes some of the girls are very young when they are married.

Regarding gay executions, I know nothing about them, only that the occur, where when how, stats I don't know. It seems that imams take the same position on homosexuality as fundamentalist christians, that the person was not born that way and can choose which way to go. It is a subject that needs researching. I myself am hoping that science makes some clear advances in this area. I'll never forget when a friend called to tell me that her teenage brother in law committed suicide. She told me "he was not straight" and I thought she was indicating his lifestyle (straight is used to describe those on the "straight path") But she was actually saying he was not straight, he was gay. It was very sad indeed to think of this young man taking his own life, which is supposed to be totally against Islam, and unless I am wrong one who commits suicide does not go to heaven. She was so distressed but I can only imagine the young man who so could not deal with one aspect of his life that was against his religion that he committed another act that was against his religion. May he rest in peace. In any case, it is an issue that I really haven't heard Muslims talking about (not that I have asked anyone about it mind you)

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Wouldn't those things go in direct defiance of Islam? Yet, these people from the taliban to the Saudis to the ayatollah believe that they are following Islam. How do they square it?
I don't know. Unless there is something in the Quran, like a specific punishment for certain actions, or in the hadith, I don't know how they would square it....

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Also, in Catholicism the Pope is considered the leader of all catholics throughout the world. The eastern orthodox church also has a pope with a similiar role. Both popes can and do excommunicate priests that go against papal dictates. Does Islam have anything similiar? A leading group of imams that make Quronic decisions?
There is no head honcho, no. Regarding a group of Imams, I don't know. We have the Islamic Council of North America, the Fiqh Council of North America, and the Islamic Society of North America. Regarding "groups of imams making decisions" you may ask Elwill that one, he'd know better than me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
And lastly, it is true that what happens in Syria, Jordan, or Pakistan will continue to happen -- the US (or any other western nation) does not and should not have say over the going ons of the region. But other more progressive muslim countries can and do -- do you see them adding their weight to stop such things? Or Al Jezeera running specials on why honor killings need to be abolished?
Well I don't want to say that the US doesn't have any say, well in a sense you are right but I am wondering if there is some way for us to put pressure on these gov'ts and or encourage them to do more about it.

I cannot say that there have been no specials on Al Jazeera about honor killings. For all I know the topic is covered once a month. Do you have any actual knowledge that this is not being discussed on Al Jazeera? Regarding the other Muslim countries stepping in, I just don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camping! View Post
Oh - and with increased immigration from lands where honor killings et al are deeply embedded into the culture, how would you as a muslim woman keep such practices out of the US? How would American muslims teach immigrants and even more importantly immigrant children that such subjegation has no place here?*
I don't know that there is a way for me to keep these actions out of the US. How would I? They are not common here to start with. The muslim communities I have been exposed to, here in the US and in the Caribbean where my DH and I lived for a time, have been pretty accepting, there were many women, myself included, that don't wear hijab. (obviously when you go to the mosque you need to wear it, though I have seen women there w/out it or it not being on properly) At worst, someone might ask a girl or woman why she doesn't. So to make an effort to stop honor killings in the US when you don't even see people having a problem w/a girl not wearing hijab, well I just don't know how I'd go about doing that. It's just not a huge problem here, the way I see it. Certainly much less common that your every day domestic violence and crime.

Also in order to stop honor killings here in the US we'd have to know who would be doing them, and target our efforts there. But I don't know if that group can be identified here, as I really don't believe it is very large.

Perhaps the immigrants that move here are not as obsessed with what the other villagers think since they no longer live in the village? And I don't mean just Muslims but any immigrant.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:15 AM
 
Location: mass
2,905 posts, read 6,575,783 times
Reputation: 4979
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
She wore a burqa. Here is a picture of it, only hers was black. Her husband wore dress pants and a dress shirt. She had to wear the burqa in public and was hit on the ankle on time (with what looked like a switch/pole) by a religious policeman because she was not wearing it properly. Something was showing.

Well, you can believe what you want. Society, including Muslim clerics in the US are calling it an honour killing.
yeah, I saw that picture on Wikipedia too, under burka.

Where was she in Saudi Arabia?

I have never heard of anyone outside of Afganistan wearing a burka perhaps w/the exception of Pakistan. You might think what she was wearing looked like a burka, but they are different.

So the husband's body was all covered up, except for his head, then? So it is not as if he was running around in jogging shorts and no shirt while she was covered head to toe.

You seem to be ignoring my point.

Can you link the articles of the imams calling it an honor killing? I haven't seen them and I'd like to read them. As a matter of fact, here is the imam who presided over her funeral, and he is not calling it an honor killing.

Religious speculation upsets imam in case of beheaded woman : Don't Miss : The Buffalo News (http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/582625.html - broken link)

ISNA's stance on it seems to relate to domestic violence
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Old 02-25-2009, 03:14 AM
 
Location: Not where I want to be
1,113 posts, read 2,257,089 times
Reputation: 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo View Post
yeah, I saw that picture on Wikipedia too, under burka.

Where was she in Saudi Arabia?

I have never heard of anyone outside of Afganistan wearing a burka perhaps w/the exception of Pakistan. You might think what she was wearing looked like a burka, but they are different.

So the husband's body was all covered up, except for his head, then? So it is not as if he was running around in jogging shorts and no shirt while she was covered head to toe.

You seem to be ignoring my point.

Can you link the articles of the imams calling it an honor killing? I haven't seen them and I'd like to read them. As a matter of fact, here is the imam who presided over her funeral, and he is not calling it an honor killing.

Religious speculation upsets imam in case of beheaded woman : Don't Miss : The Buffalo News (http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/582625.html - broken link)

ISNA's stance on it seems to relate to domestic violence
Again, I know what a Burqa is. I held in my hands. She put it on in front of me? Why do you question me? And what does it matter?

Her husband was dressed like any other American man. Your point?

Here is a good link about Honour Killings in the US.
FOXNews.com - Abuse of U.S. Muslim Women Is Greater Than Reported, Advocacy Groups Say - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327187,00.html - broken link)


International Campaign Against Honour Killings › News › Honor killings claim 1,000 lives in five years


Sad milestone for Turkey: 1,000 honor killings in 5 years

A sad day for women in Turkey. Turkey claims to be secular, but has obviously become more ‘islamic’ in the last few years.

The Prime Ministry’s Human Rights Directorate issued a report on “honor killings,” which contains discouraging findings, daily Radikal reported Friday.

In Istanbul, at least one person dies every week because of honor killings according to the report, which is the most comprehensive in its field. The number of murders committed for honor in the last five years has exceeded 1,000. The murderers are treated as heroes in prisons and they do not regret their crimes.

“The Report on Honor Killings” was presented by the president of the Prime Ministry’s Human Rights Directorate, professor Dr. Tahsin Fendo?lu, at a meeting called “Women and Participation: Problems and Solutions.” According to the report, the number of honor killings was 150 in 2002, while it rose to 220 in 2007. Occurrence of honor killings is inversely proportional with education levels. Not only women but also men fall victim to honor killings. Besides, around 9 percent of the murders are committed by children.

The report declares that metropolitan cities are leading crime scenes of honor killings. In the last five years, 167 people were murdered in Istanbul. Ankara followed with 144, ?zmir with 121, and Diyarbak?r with 69. The crimes were mostly perpetrated by people with origins in eastern Turkey. The report states that the number of honor killings in Istanbul increased to 53 in 2007 from 27 in 2006.


Video: Egyptian Lawyer says all Israeli women deserve to be raped
Video: Egyptian Lawyer says all Israeli women deserve to be raped | Infidels Are Cool


Muslim clerics in the U.S. likely preached that Aasiya Hassan could have avoided her fate by being more obedient, said Muqtedar Khan, an associate professor of political science and international relations at the University of Delaware.

“The imam has to be enlightened enough to recognize this violence happens, to not hide in denial or somehow blame it on American culture,” said Khan, author of “American Muslims: Bridging Faith and Freedom.”

“In order to essentially condemn violence against women, they will have to treat women with greater respect. Unfortunately, the level of enlightenment among imams in North America varies significantly.”
Honor Killing Watch: “Muslims don’t want to talk about this for good reason” » Winds Of Jihad


Jordan's dilemma over 'honour killings'

"A woman is like an olive tree. When its branch catches woodworm, it has to be chopped off so that society stays clean and pure." So declared one tribal leader when pressed on the issue of "honour killings" in Jordan, where approximately every two weeks a woman is killed by a male relative because of the shame she has brought upon her family by an alleged sexual transgression - "sins" which include being raped.

Those found guilty of such killings rarely receive sentences longer than one year, and many serve terms of one month. They tend to be sentenced under legislation which reduces sentences for crimes committed in a "fit of rage" sparked by an "unlawful action" on the part of the victim. According to campaigning journalist Rana Husseini, actions such as leaving the family home for a period, or uttering words such as "This is my life. I am free to do as I choose" were all considered unlawful acts in verdicts on honour killings issued last year.
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Old 02-25-2009, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,639 posts, read 24,827,559 times
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What about the California Christian woman who murdered her child today?
Is this permitted in all christian practicing countries?
The question is just as absurd.
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Old 02-25-2009, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,872,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
you need to upgrade your informations

Vatican: Islam Surpasses Roman Catholicism As World's Largest Religion

ABC News: Muslims More Numerous Than Catholics
Sorry, elwill, but Catholics only make up a part of all Christians. There may be more Muslims than Catholics, but my percentage is correct. There are still more Christians than Muslims.
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Old 02-25-2009, 06:07 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
Reputation: 161
MrsMtnsOnTheMind , yesterday i was preparing for you some honor killing happened by christians as well , it's very easy to google " husband kill his wife" , try it MrsMind
after i prepared many of these kinds of cases to post it ( some of them the husband shoot himself either ) i just realized how silly will be if i did as you do , i realized that i really don't need to mention you that nonmuslims husbands killing thier wifes as well

i just find out that your proclaims not worthey for my effort
anyway , good luck with your agenda , it will change nothing about what the real teaching of islam , because the real teaching exist in our books where you can find nothing in it justify these behaviours

peace
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsMtnsOnTheMind View Post
Are you saying that the Muslim religion is creating lunatics? Because there are an awful lot of them out there who are committing these crimes. Perhaps you should hide the knives.....you obviously can't teach your children anything but Islam from your previous posts, so keep defending the faith because now you are stuck in it.

Yes domestic violence is a problem in this country, however, Americans don't go around beheading our citizens.....that is reserved for the Muslim faith.
Good going! American men just leave their wives/girlfriends black and blue, maybe a broken bone or two, but, at least no beheading, except by an American GI in Fulda, Germany, in 1993. He cut off the head of his rival and brought it to his cheating wife's hospital bed.
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